UK Parliament / Open data

Elections Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Monday, 21 March 2022, in the House of Lords, led by Lord True. The answering members were Lord Collins of Highbury and Baroness Hayman of Ullock.
Lords committee stage fourth day. Clause 1 agreed to. Schedule 1, as amended, agreed to. (Part 1 of 2).
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
820 cc653-715 
Session
2021-22
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber

Show all related items (7)
Elections Bill
Monday, 21 March 2022
Parliamentary proceedings
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2022-0366
Wednesday, 6 April 2022
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2022-0373
Wednesday, 6 April 2022
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 820 cc653-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall wait for just a minute while those who do not wish to hear my exciting speech a...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 820 cc655-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I commend the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, and agree with everything he said; that is hard...


Show all contributions (121)
Lord Hayward | 820 c657 (Link to this contribution)

Given that the noble Baroness has a principled objection to the introduction of photo ID, why is ...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 820 c657 (Link to this contribution)

My noble friends, who have more experience of being selected to stand for elected office in the L...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 820 c657 (Link to this contribution)

I am being told that it is an option. Perhaps my noble friends can speak of what they know and I ...

Baroness Hayman of Ullock | 820 c657 (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps I may clarify, as this has come up before. When you go to selection meetings you are aske...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 820 cc657-8 (Link to this contribution)

I should say, for the record, that I have never stood for election to a parish council or a PTA c...

Lord Woodley | 820 cc658-660 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I agree that Clause 1 should be struck from the Bill, if the Bill itself is not withdra...

Baroness Fox of Buckley | 820 cc659-662 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support this proposal that the clause stand part but I have some caveats. A high-prof...

Lord Desai | 820 c662 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have been somewhat orthogonal to this whole debate for a long time. I feel that wheth...

Lord Hayward | 820 c662 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I hope that I have displayed to the Committee an independence of spirit on certain part...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 820 c662 (Link to this contribution)

I am so sorry to interrupt mid-sentence; it was just due to my hesitation. In the moments which f...

Lord Hayward | 820 c663 (Link to this contribution)

I did not say those polls, I said some polls. In fact, the noble Baroness actually referred to th...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 820 c663 (Link to this contribution)

It is just my mask which makes me look suspicious.

Lord Hayward | 820 c663 (Link to this contribution)

In which case, I apologise for misinterpreting the noble Baroness’s expression below her mask.

Lord Adonis | 820 c663 (Link to this contribution)

Has not the noble Lord just undermined his own argument, then? If things are moving in the right ...

Lord Hayward | 820 cc663-4 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord is misinterpreting the data within those datasets and what the Electoral Commissio...

Baroness Fox of Buckley | 820 c664 (Link to this contribution)

In my Second Reading speech, I said that I recognised the sense in which we have a problem of peo...

Lord Hayward | 820 c664 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the noble Baroness for her intervention. She and I clearly recognise that there is a prob...

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle | 820 c664 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for giving way. He spoke about the alienation of voters and earl...

Lord Hayward | 820 c665 (Link to this contribution)

I agree with the noble Baroness, but I am not sure that it is specifically or solely related to t...

Baroness Hayman of Ullock | 820 c665 (Link to this contribution)

I was only giving my personal experience.

Lord Hayward | 820 cc665-6 (Link to this contribution)

I appreciate that correction from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman.

But the concentration ha...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 820 c666 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way again. I understand where he is going: he is drawi...

Lord Hayward | 820 cc666-7 (Link to this contribution)

On the noble Baroness’s first intervention, I knew that people would raise objections. I was citi...

Bishop of Leeds | 820 c667 (Link to this contribution)

What I am struggling to understand is this. There is a fundamental difference between belonging t...

Lord Hayward | 820 c667 (Link to this contribution)

The right reverend Prelate identifies the difference, but I have drawn the parallel, and it is a ...

Lord Grocott | 820 cc667-9 (Link to this contribution)

Has the noble Lord finished? I am sure my noble friend will deal with his query, which has been d...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 820 c669 (Link to this contribution)

My noble friend might be interested to know that at the end of the last day in Committee the nobl...

Lord Grocott | 820 c669 (Link to this contribution)

Well, I do not suppose that surprises me. I bet one bit of research they have done and been caref...

Lord Adonis | 820 c669 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to my noble friend for giving way. What he and the Committee are addressing are the...

Lord Grocott | 820 c670 (Link to this contribution)

I absolutely agree. I would add only one point to my noble friend’s observations. If we regard th...

Baroness Scott of Bybrook | 820 c670 (Link to this contribution)

Before my noble friend Lord Hayward sat down, the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, rose to intervene. Perh...

Lord Sikka | 820 c670 (Link to this contribution)

Thank you very much. I certainly have not come across any evidence to suggest that ID cards are a...

Baroness Noakes | 820 c670 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, voter ID is not something dreamed up by the Government with the express intention of su...

Lord Scriven | 820 c671 (Link to this contribution)

Can the noble Baroness explain where the Electoral Commission by itself said that voter ID was re...

Baroness Noakes | 820 c671 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry that I do not have chapter and verse with me, but the Electoral Commission has called ...

Lord Adonis | 820 c671 (Link to this contribution)

If the system works well, why change it? I thought it was a good Conservative principle that, whe...

Baroness Noakes | 820 c671 (Link to this contribution)

The world has changed very considerably in the past half a century.

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle | 820 c671 (Link to this contribution)

Would the noble Baroness concede that this House and the other place have changed very little in ...

Baroness Noakes | 820 c671 (Link to this contribution)

That is an entirely irrelevant observation, if I may say so.

I have heard many noble Lords ...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 820 c672 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way, because it is worth addressing this point. It...

Baroness Noakes | 820 c672 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the noble Baroness says we are not comparing like with like, and I completely agree. I ...

Lord Scriven | 820 c672 (Link to this contribution)

The Electoral Commission’s analysis of the 2019 pilots showed that people in the compulsory voter...

Baroness Noakes | 820 c673 (Link to this contribution)

I cannot answer that question, but the purpose of pilots is to find out what practical problems t...

Lord Scriven | 820 c673 (Link to this contribution)

But if the basis of this, as the Government keep saying, is to increase the public’s satisfaction...

Baroness Noakes | 820 c673 (Link to this contribution)

I do not think the only metric is how satisfied people were. The most important thing is how comf...

Baroness Noakes | 820 c673 (Link to this contribution)

I am just about to finish, if the noble Baroness does not mind. I hope that noble Lords will stan...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 820 cc673-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall speak in support of these clauses not standing part of the Bill. I do so primar...

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle | 820 cc674-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Lister of Burtersett. I agree...

Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts | 820 c675 (Link to this contribution)

Does the noble Baroness not understand that voting systems in the US are a state matter? The prob...

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle | 820 cc675-6 (Link to this contribution)

I disagree with the noble Lord, in the sense that I am talking about the rhetoric, and the contex...

Lord Hayward | 820 c676 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Baroness is citing where the pilots took place. Earlier on, the noble Lord, Lord Adonis...

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle | 820 c676 (Link to this contribution)

I respectfully respond to the noble Lord that, whether it was the choice of the local authorities...

Lord Adonis | 820 c676 (Link to this contribution)

If I may intervene, I knew where the pilots had taken place, but they were not nearly proportiona...

Lord Scriven | 820 c676 (Link to this contribution)

Is it not the case that this has not been piloted before a general election? The Electoral Commis...

Lord Adonis | 820 c676 (Link to this contribution)

That is a fundamental point. They were piloted in local elections. The scale of the pilots has no...

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle | 820 cc676-7 (Link to this contribution)

I thank both noble Lords, who have contributed greatly to my argument.

I come back to the q...

Lord Scriven | 820 cc677-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, at Second Reading, my noble friend Lord Rennard, who unfortunately cannot be here today...

Lord Adonis | 820 c679 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the speech that we have just heard from the noble Lord was utterly compelling. Indeed, ...

Lord Adonis | 820 c679 (Link to this contribution)

That should be a matter of huge concern. In an extraordinarily un-Conservative statement earlier,...

Lord Hayward | 820 c679 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry to intervene again but is the noble Lord aware of the report of foreign observers who ...

Lord Adonis | 820 cc679-682 (Link to this contribution)

The big issue in Tower Hamlets, which the noble Lord referred to earlier, was electoral registrat...

Lord Collins of Highbury | 820 c681 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I intend to be brief, because I do not want to repeat all the excellent arguments that ...

Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts | 820 c681 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the noble Lord for giving way. Yes, the report of the committee that I chaired said that ...

Lord Collins of Highbury | 820 cc681-3 (Link to this contribution)

I hear what the noble Lord says, but it will not stop me—because in the argument about proportion...

Lord True | 820 cc683-4 (Link to this contribution)

Well, my Lords, I thank all those who have taken part in what has been quite a lengthy debate—but...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 820 c684 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry, but can the Minister clarify why the Government chose not to put the word “photo” int...

Lord True | 820 c684 (Link to this contribution)

The Government had an established and declared policy on voter identification which was reference...

Lord Collins of Highbury | 820 cc684-5 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry to interrupt. I do not want to delay proceedings any more, but the noble Lord just ref...

Lord True | 820 cc685-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, applications for the free card will be available up to 5 pm on the day before, as has b...

Lord Scriven | 820 c686 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I do not need to meet the Bill team. The impact assessment that the Minister signed off...

Lord True | 820 c686 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am sorry that the noble Lord does not wish to meet members of the Bill team and I am ...

Lord Scriven | 820 c686 (Link to this contribution)

I think it is important for the Committee to understand this because the noble Lord has said some...

Lord True | 820 c687 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it covers economic, equality and other assessments. If I misspoke, I apologise. I say f...

Lord Adonis | 820 c687 (Link to this contribution)

Does the Minister therefore intend to accept my noble friend Lady Hayman of Ullock’s Amendment 64...

Lord True | 820 c688 (Link to this contribution)

No—we do not believe that the amendment is necessary, but the noble Lord is anticipating the next...

Lord Scriven | 820 c688 (Link to this contribution)

That is very well and good but coming back to the impact assessment, on applying for absent votes...

Lord True | 820 c688 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I repeat that we believe that, in an increasingly digital world, where the introduction...

Lord Adonis | 820 c688 (Link to this contribution)

There is a fundamental issue. The Minister has said that it will be possible to apply for the two...

Lord True | 820 c688 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am not sure whether it is under that specific rubric. Obviously, a lot of this materi...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 820 cc688-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this has been a long and often confused debate. I have to say that I am as confused at ...

Baroness Hayman of Ullock | 820 c689 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Hayman of Ullock

63: After Clause 1, insert the following new Claus...

Baroness Hayman of Ullock | 820 cc689-690 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, there is a large number of amendments in this group, all of which refer to Schedule 1. ...

Lord Adonis | 820 cc690-1 (Link to this contribution)

The issue that I hope the Minister will address, and which goes to the heart of my noble friend’s...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 820 c691 (Link to this contribution)

To save multiple interventions on my noble friend, I just want to say this: it is all very well t...

Baroness Hayman of Ullock | 820 cc691-3 (Link to this contribution)

I thank both my noble friends for their contributions and support for this amendment. As I said, ...

Baroness Greengross | 820 cc692-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will speak briefly in support of Amendments 64, 78, 79 and 81. On Second Reading, I e...

Lord Willetts | 820 cc694-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, Amendment 80 in my name has the support of other Members of this House, including—he as...

Lord Adonis | 820 c696 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord is implicitly saying that he does not regard the Conservative Party manifesto as e...

Lord Willetts | 820 c696 (Link to this contribution)

Well, it will be up to the Committee to decide. I very much hope the Minister will be able to pro...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 820 c696 (Link to this contribution)

Before the noble Lord sits down, I will ask a question specifically addressed to his amendment. B...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 820 c697 (Link to this contribution)

I make no comment about that, but people increasingly use debit and credit cards. They carry them...

Lord Willetts | 820 c697 (Link to this contribution)

I take that point; this is not the perfect list. Indeed, there is a rather different agenda behin...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 820 cc697-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will speak briefly to support the amendments to which I added my name: Amendment 80 i...

Bishop of Coventry | 820 c698 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I offer your Lordships an apology for not being able to contribute to Committee for all...

Baroness Meacher | 820 cc698-700 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support Amendments 63 to 69 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock,...

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb | 820 cc700-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I agree with almost all of the previous contributions. I wish I had joined in on the pr...

Lord Adonis | 820 cc701-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I want to return to what the Minister said in the last group, because it is going to be...

Baroness Chakrabarti | 820 c702 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord made a thoroughly compelling speech, as did the noble Lord, Lord Willetts. As he i...

Lord Adonis | 820 c702 (Link to this contribution)

My noble friend makes a compelling point, which is really a point for the noble Lord, Lord Willet...

Lord Stunell | 820 c705 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall dial down the rhetoric a little here. First, I want to pick up what the noble B...

Lord Adonis | 820 c705 (Link to this contribution)

The point is that the MP would be turned away, because that pass does not mean that someone can t...

Lord Stunell | 820 cc705-6 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord makes an interesting point. At the 2017 election, when I was present at the normal...

Lord Scriven | 820 cc706-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall speak first to my Amendment 66A and, in so doing, I draw the Committee’s attent...

Lord Desai | 820 c708 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall make a very short point about Amendment 80. The noble Lord should look carefull...

Lord True | 820 cc708-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, again I thank all those who have spoken in the debate. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, out...

Lord Adonis | 820 c709 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister has been extremely helpful on this point. An extremely important statement has been ...

Lord True | 820 cc709-712 (Link to this contribution)

Certainly, I would hope and intend for that to be the case. I am not writing the regulations pers...

Lord Scriven | 820 c710 (Link to this contribution)

Will the Minister clarify one issue? Why is the provision to allow an application up until 5 pm o...

Lord True | 820 cc710-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, we believe on the basis of our discussions that it is, and should be, practical. Whethe...

Lord Adonis | 820 c713 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister is making important new points in his closing remarks that are of significance to th...

Lord True | 820 c713 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the Government’s policy position is clear. I will probably get wrapped over the knuckle...

Lord Adonis | 820 c713 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am sorry to labour the point, but can the Minister write to us on this? It is one thi...

Baroness Hayman of Ullock | 820 c713 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this lengthy debate, and the Ministe...

Lord True | 820 cc713-4 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord True

74: Schedule 1, page 72, line 12, leave out from “to” to end of li...

Lord True | 820 c714 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord True

82: Schedule 1, page 80, line 37, leave out “current”

Member...

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