It has been very interesting to listen to the noble Lords, Lord Henley, Lord Liddle and Lord Jopling, giving to the Committee the benefit of their personal experience and opinion on what should happen. I shall try to avoid taking a perspective about Cumbria from my vantage point on the east of the Pennines. It suspect is a complicated matter. Cumbria is a very large county, geographically, and has a substantial population, and it has a diversity to which I think the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, referred, which is extremely important. I hope that when he replies, the Minister will give specific answers to the points raised by those noble Lords who reside in the county of Cumbria or have represented it and know it, and others will be following to talk about that.
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I am a bit puzzled about timing now. The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, reminded us about the elections to the shadow councils, so in his reply can the Minister tell us when they will be? It seems we do not have a lot of time. There are a lot of operational issues that need to be right. Of course, we are at the end of the consideration in parliamentary terms and it may be everybody is already prepared for what is about to happen, but I think the Minister should make absolutely clear that everything can be done in the timescales that have been set out.
This order makes substantial changes to local government in Cumbria. I recall the establishment, almost 50 years ago, of the current structure out of Cumberland, Westmorland, parts of north Lancashire and a small part of west Yorkshire. We should all pay tribute to the councillors and officers who, over those years, have contributed to the success of local government across Cumbria at all levels.
I accept that times change, and here is a set of structural changes that seems to have some local support, but not from everyone as the consultation has shown. As I said earlier, it is not for me to question local views in Cumbria or to express a preference, but I agree with the Government’s approach, which has been to say that the creation of unitary councils must be locally led and not imposed by central government.
In this case, the east/west proposal was proposed locally, but it has to be agreed by central government. There were other possible outcomes and the wide range of responses to them, as part of the consultation,
was extremely important, so when I look at the support for other proposals, I begin to wonder whether all the consultation has been adequately considered.
I read the Explanatory Memorandum very carefully and think its assertion that the two new unitary councils will provide “greater value for money” and “stronger strategic … leadership” could prove to be true. I am less certain about its assertion that local leadership will be strengthened. It may well be, and it can be, but the Government and the two unitaries will need to ensure that the parish and town council tiers, which represent very local areas, have the powers, resources and support they need to be effective.
The words “credible geography” feature several times in the Explanatory Memorandum to the order. From my knowledge of Cumbria, there is no perfect answer to this. I am sure the Minister will agree that mountain ranges can be a serious barrier to effective working, as paragraph 10.11 suggests in relation to the north/south proposal, but scale is a big issue as well. With all that said, in my view, the east/west proposal can be made to work, as long as there is a strong tier below the unitary level.
I have some doubts around the proposals on fire and rescue. They will need close attention over the coming months because of the pressures of distance across Cumbria and the limited resources that will apply, given the cuts that have been made to local government budgets. The Government have spelled out the options to consider and, whatever choice is made, it must command local consent. I would prefer to see a joint board arrangement between the two councils, rather than simply enhancing the power of the police and crime commissioner, but that is for the people of Cumbria to decide.
Joint working between the two unitaries and the joint committees being proposed to make sure the unitaries are in place on time are very important. That is why I also think it a good thing that in the order there is a clearly defined duty on the existing councils to co-operate.
I hope the Minister will be able to say more about the proposal for a single unitary council for the whole of the county, why the Government rejected it and how the preference for the east/west proposal emerged. It seems to me that a single unitary is very big and it is difficult to deliver local leadership with a single unitary council. The scale and diversity of Cumbria has to be understood in the proposals being made.
Finally, I take very seriously the points that have been made by all noble Lords and, in particular, those made by the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, on the mayoral combined authority. It would be distinctly unwise to pursue a mayoral combined authority. It centralises power so much in a very large geographical area that I cannot see it working. Unless the powers and resources of town and parish councils are significantly enhanced, I fear the model will not work. I hope the Minister will tell us that this is not on the Government’s agenda. Can all this be done in the timescales the Government have set if this order is progressed quickly? I think the Minister needs to bear in mind that there are still a very large number of open-ended questions that have not been resolved.