My Lords, Amendment 292D is in my name. I hope that noble Lords will indulge me if I respond with a few remarks on Amendments 278 and 279. I will do it all in one go and be as brief as I can. I do not intend to take up very much of the Committee’s time with these issues.
Amendment 292D perhaps should not be part of this group but it is, so I will move ahead with it. It is because of the scope of this Bill that I have been able to table this amendment. I will start with two case histories. The first is about a 19 year-old, who, a long time ago, during the Italia 90 World Cup—which noble Lords in the Committee will remember—was in a public house with a friend, watching the football. An incident in which the friend was involved meant that the police were called. The first individual tried to stop his friend from making an even greater idiot of himself by assaulting the police and, for his pains, he was charged, no doubt properly, with obstructing the police. He was not charged with assault, but he was fined £20. Since then, he has never been in trouble again. He has been a councillor for many years and, ironically, he chaired the community services team—that part of the council which works closely with the police to reduce crime. He also happens to be the regional secretary of a very important organisation covering the whole of the Midlands and, to add irony upon irony, he is just
celebrating his 20th year as a magistrate. Public-spirited, he applied to be a candidate for the position of police and crime commissioner in his area some years ago, only to be told that his conviction banned him from doing so.
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I will very briefly outline case history number two, concerning a person who was 16 in 1972. He had an old scooter and, with his friends, he visited a hospital, where one of his mates handed him an old scooter helmet which was apparently useless, and which he put in his family’s garage. He was charged with handling and was fined £5. Since then, he has never offended again. In 1972, he began working for a local newspaper. He had a highly successful career in journalism, became head of regional media, and worked for the NSPCC as a press and information officer. He has also been a TA soldier for many years, and indeed was the company sergeant major. He is a county councillor where he lives, currently serving his fourth term. Again, the irony is that he was a member of the local police authority—bodies which have just been praised so highly—and now he is a member of the local police and crime panel, which holds the police and crime commissioner to account. Noble Lords will be able to imagine his surprise, exactly 40 years later, in 2012, when the first PCC elections were due to be held and he wanted to stand as a candidate, when he was amazed to be told he could not because of the 1972 conviction. I remind the Committee that he was 16 at the time.
A week ago, I listened to an outstanding debate in this House on IPP prisoners. It was one of those occasions when the House—and the Committee here—shines and, with one voice, points out a serious wrong that needs to be put right immediately. My Amendment 292D is very minor in comparison, and yet it too asks Her Majesty’s Government to remedy what may be a small thing but is an obviously wrong and unfair position.
I too, in a small way, want to right a wrong. Section 66 of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011 is clear that, if a person has—I want to emphasise these words—at any stage in their life a conviction for any offence which, if they were over 18 at the time, could carry a sentence of imprisonment, that person would remain ineligible to be a candidate in a police and crime commissioner election for the rest of their life; not just until the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act kicks in, and not just for five, 10, 20, 30 or 40 years, but for all their life.
It is of course obvious that no police and crime commissioner should have a recent or serious previous conviction; no one is arguing anything different from that. Recent cases—cases that are being dealt with now—are not relevant to what I am talking about. Those people with recent or serious previous convictions— even if committed when they were young—should of course be excluded, in my view, from standing for election for that particular post. But I ask the Committee this: what can be the rationale for preventing a person who, when a child or young person, committed a minor offence and has since led a blameless life, perhaps even becoming a leader in their community, and has committed no other offence of any kind, standing for the position of police and crime commissioner?
The real point here is that no other position that I can find in our society carries this restriction. It does not apply to elected Members of Parliament or elected councillors, High Court judges, the Home Secretary, the Prime Minister, or even, with the greatest respect, the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury. Why does it apply uniquely for police and crime commissioners?
Will the Government’s response be that the public would be appalled by the thought that either of the two individuals whose cases I have outlined could become police and crime commissioners? Of course not. Would the Government suffer a backlash from the people of this country at such an outrageous decision? Of course not. This is a chance for this very minor difficulty—this minor wrong—to be put right.
Many years ago, I was in the position where the Minister sits, and I have had to put forward ridiculous arguments in the past—I admit to that freely—to defend the Government’s position. I know that he is fairly new to his job, and expert at it, but I ask him to please consider really carefully the argument here, which seems, to me at least, to be absolutely overwhelming that this small change should be made and a very a small injustice put right.
I have to change my mood slightly now to deal with the amendment from the noble Baroness. I want to do this as quickly as I can. I very much welcome a discussion surrounding the role of police and crime commissioners, but I have to say at once that I could not possibly support an amendment of the sort that she has moved, and I dare say, with some confidence, that I do not think the Government could either. I promise the Committee—I hope noble Lords believe me—that it is not only because I have just completed five years as a police and crime commissioner; it is for other and better reasons, which I will outline very briefly.
First, the thought of yet another referendum fills me with absolute dread, and I suspect that might be true for a number of other Members of the Committee. Secondly, and more seriously, this would be no practical way of changing the system, leading to, I would have thought, an unworkable scheme that would make life absolutely impossible for police forces around the country, for elected metropolitan mayors—who, by the way, act as police and crime commissioners in their area—and indeed for any Government of any political persuasion. Thirdly, if you really want to abolish police and crime commissioners—I happen not to want to—there are better ways under our system to do so than to have a rough and ready referendum, as is proposed. I hope that those remarks are sensible.
I welcome the discussion, and it is right that we have not discussed police and crime commissioners enough over the last 10 years; we should do so more. I very much hope that one day—shortly, perhaps—there will be a full debate on their virtues and their faults, because both absolutely exist.
As someone who started out as a sceptic—indeed, I voted for the Motion in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, and my noble friend Lord Hunt, which sent the matter back to the Commons in the first place, all those years ago—I now find myself as someone
who believes that, given that the existence of police and crime commissioners is only nine years old, it would be extremely premature to disrupt the system so soon. In my view, on balance, and particularly in the last few years, there has been substantial progress in this difficult but vital area, in a free country, and in the really difficult debate about police accountability and the public. I am not saying that police and crime commissioners are the final answer, but I really think that, if you move away from that position, you have to do it in a responsible and sensible way.
To change it radically now, before it has had a proper opportunity to show its worth or otherwise—I do not think nine years is enough—would be irresponsible. Faults it certainly has; I put some of those down to the Government of the time. It is generally agreed that the Government failed completely to explain to the public what the new scheme was and even that it existed. The Government refused to provide information for the first election, held in the month of November, pretty absurdly, in 2012. It was therefore hardly a shock when the turnout was as pathetic as it turned out to be. PCC elections have suffered ever since, although at each successive one there has been an increase in turnout. Even now, I argue that the Home Office is strangely reluctant to publicise the role of police and crime commissioners enough.
An even greater mistake, I am afraid, was in the year-on-year cuts in police spending that the Government of that time committed, which obviously affected society in general. It also prevented new PCCs, who were starting their jobs, from making their mark and being able to do anything innovative, because there was not the money for the force that they worked in.
Among the most obvious misunderstandings—with the greatest respect, we have heard it again this afternoon —is a belief that the old police committee system somehow worked so well or better in holding chief constables to account. There is also the crucial work that police and crime commissioners do in partnership to reduce crime and keep people safe. I do not think the old police committees worked that well, even though there were clearly outstanding members and chairs among them who played an important role. I am not surprised that police chiefs at the time fought very hard to keep that system and prevent the new system coming in. One might ask why.
To reinvent that now would not be a progressive move of any kind. It would very much be a step backward in my view and, I hope, that of the Government. If there is a better scheme, let us go for it at some stage; but to move back to a scheme that is already nine years gone, and one that a lot of people would argue did not always work very well, would be a mistake. It may have worked well in the Met but it certainly did not work all that well everywhere else.
What is left out of this debate is due to a fundamental misunderstanding of a police and crime commissioner’s role. Of course an essential part of it is holding the chief constable and his or her force to account on behalf of the public, but this leaves out that commissioner’s responsibilities to fight crime and support the victims of it, protect the vulnerable and make people feel generally more secure. That more general part of the
work—not the holding to account, important though it is—gave me the greatest buzz, as I have said to this Committee before. The responsibility for victims was given by the Government to police and crime commissioners. They fulfil a crucial role which never happened under the old system.
However, these duties require police and crime commissioners to work all the time with other partners—not just the police but a much wider number of public partners and charities. Police and crime commissioners are in an excellent position to co-ordinate, and sometimes to lead, these initiatives. If this duty existed before, it has expanded exponentially over the last nine years. This may be the work that takes a long time to show results. It is often slow, and sometimes depressing, but surely no one in the Committee today would doubt that this kind of work is valuable in itself. Police and crime commissioners are well placed to play a leading part in that.
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I want to praise the Government here for taking that on board in the last few years. They have seen the value in setting up violence reduction networks and safer streets programmes, all done through police and crime commissioners. Since the appalling murder of Ms Everard, there is also the new money coming in for the position of women, particularly young women. There are, of course, outstanding police and crime commissioners and some who are not so outstanding. That is true of most elected places, whether it be a council or, if I dare say so, the other place. A good police and crime commissioner can make a huge difference, in the same way that a good elected mayor can. A bad one can place the whole system into disrepute; I accept that.
I have attempted to say just a few words—