My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who contributed to the debate and all their expressions of support for the amendments—perhaps even, in intent, at least, from the Minister; and I thank him for his detailed answer. My noble friend Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb asked, “What is the Government for?” Surely, one of the purposes is to ensure we have clean air to breathe and to ensure that we have a healthy life for future generations —something that the noble Lord, Lord Bird, is trying to do by other means.
The noble Earl, Lord Dundee, offered welcome support and said very clearly that we need goals to be identified and made concrete, acknowledging that we must consider the global impact of our environment. The noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, said that we cannot go on just generating greenhouse gases—how could it be better summed up?—particularly highlighting our position of COP chair, and stressed the need for statistical compatibility and credibility in Glasgow. I think perhaps we may just park the emperor with no clothes metaphor, but it is certainly apt.
The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, stressed the need for the Treasury to engage in this debate, with which I can only very much agree, and spoke about the need for all departments to be engaged in environmental issues, with which I of course agree. My amendment is focused on the narrow issue of economic measurement, moving away from the failed, damaging emphasis on GDP.
The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, focused on reprogramming the economy, something we clearly need to do, and said that it needs a rethink at the highest level. As she was speaking, I thought that
perhaps the highest level in the Government should be Defra, because that is the place where it all starts. She also stressed the need for leadership from the top.
I particularly have to welcome the Minister’s comments, many of which reflect speeches that I give regularly about the total misalignment of using GDP as a welfare measure. I just wish that we could hear that from the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, or Rishi Sunak in the other place, instead of only from the noble Lord, Lord Goldsmith. He referred to the Dasgupta report, which is useful and important. At least by using pound values it puts all the issues into terms that the Treasury can understand.
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However, I want to tackle the Minister’s suggestion that the alternatives are overly complicated. In my speech, I set out a suggested measure presented by a group of distinguished economists working with the OECD, and I should be happy to share their paper with the Minister. As I said at the start, the New Zealand Treasury has managed to master all these mathematical and statistical challenges. One might say that New Zealand is a smaller country than the UK, but if the New Zealand Treasury can manage it, perhaps ours should be able to, too.
When reflecting on my noble friend Lady Moulsecoomb’s amendment, the Minister said that the Bill sets out ambitious, legally binding air quality targets. Those are like the targets we had under EU membership for decades, which we have been breaking regularly and over which ClientEarth took the Government to court successfully again and again. This matter is not at all under control, and I welcome the Minister’s comments that we need to co-operate with our neighbours on that. I should like that idea to be reflected across government.
This has been a useful debate. Perhaps we have taken things a little further forward, particularly given the Minister’s comments. We will probably be back somewhere on these grounds on Report. However, in the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.