I thank noble Lords for their amendments and hope to provide some reassurance and clarity. I start with Amendment 2, in the name of my noble friend Lord Forsyth, who, as my noble friend Lord Randall reminded us, referred to himself as an “extinct volcano”. Volcanologists will probably warn of an eruption if I do not achieve some degree of reassurance.
The first reassurance I will give my noble friend is that, when I arrived as a Minister in Defra in 2010, we had inherited 92 arm’s-length bodies, which we reduced to 33. It was a brutal process, but we got it about right. It shows a desire for simplicity, and direct accountability to Parliament is something I hold dear.
My noble friend Lord Forsyth has concerns about the animal sentience committee’s relationship with the Animal Welfare Committee, which have also been articulated by other noble Lords. I emphasise that the two committees have important roles and different remits. The Animal Welfare Committee provides substantive policy advice on request to Defra, as well as to the Scottish and Welsh Governments. By contrast, the animal sentience committee will review and scrutinise the Government’s policy-making and, in doing so, facilitate Parliament’s
scrutiny of the Government. It would be rare for the two committees to address precisely the same questions in the normal course of their work, nor do we want to prevent them delivering their distinct roles.
The noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, referred to the committee possibly becoming a runaway horse. In that unlikely event, it would be reined in. There will be performance reviews of the committee and, if it is ineffective, action will be taken to change its membership.
Amendment 11, also in the name of my noble friend, would have the structure and make-up of the animal sentience committee established by regulations or otherwise subject to parliamentary approval. My noble friend raises an important point, which is that the establishment of the committee should be a transparent and collaborative process. I have already committed to sharing draft terms of reference for the committee before this Bill returns to the House on Report. I would, however, be wary of defining the terms of reference and the membership of the committee too rigidly in statute.
This committee is an entirely new entity with a new and specific remit and, to some extent, its first steps will involve learning and refining how it wishes to operate and what expertise it requires. Normal practice with such committees, in line with Cabinet Office guidance, is that they are funded from within a departmental budget. We are clear that the committee should be made up of members who collectively have the appropriate expertise to enable the committee to perform its role. The code on public appointments provides a robust framework for appointments to the committee.
However important the Bill and the committee it establishes, the fact is that parliamentary time is limited and must be used to best effect. Discussing the substance of the reports, where noble Lords and honourable Members in the other place wish to do so, will be far more illuminating than debates on, say, the precise nature of the committee’s composition.
The animal sentience committee will be a committee of experts that publishes reports. It will not make policy decisions, nor will it be a delivery body. It therefore lacks the sorts of responsibilities described in the Public Bodies Handbook that might warrant use of parliamentary time to oversee the committee’s membership and internal processes. Although I would not wish to place the terms of reference in statute, I reiterate my commitment to share them in draft for your Lordships’ consideration, ahead of Report.
Looking around this Room, I see people who have great experience of legislating down the years from within the Government, the Executive, and the legislature and it is entirely right that people in my position are pushed as far as they can be to give details. But to those of us who have been in government, I say that we also want the flexibility to make sure that what we are creating here works. Sometimes, if we are too rigid in our legislation we make that more difficult to the point whereby it could become ineffective and a point of continuing debate. I want to give flexibility to the new committee and future Ministers to create something that is not only effective but can be held to account for what they do.
I turn to my noble friend Lord Forsyth’s last amendment in the group, Amendment 40, concerning the work programme and resourcing of the committee. It will be comprised of experts. It is they who will be best placed to decide what the committee’s priorities should be, although they can of course consult others. I can reassure my noble friend that the annual work plan of the committee will be made publicly available. This will ensure that its priorities and approach are fully transparent. It is right that the committee should have the freedom to set its own agenda. Committee members are the experts on sentience and will be able to offer informed views that Ministers can consider alongside other important social, environmental, cultural or economic issues.
Both my noble friend Lord Forsyth and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, in her Amendment 14, have rightly highlighted the need to furnish the committee with the appropriate resources to perform its function. I can confirm that we shall do so. There will be a dedicated secretariat.
I turn to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, and her Amendments 6 and 62, with which I will consider the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, Amendment 5, all concerning the membership and operation of the animal sentience committee. The committee has a specific, well-defined function set out in the Bill. It is there to provide assurance that the Government are having all due regard to the effects of policy decisions on animal welfare. The ultimate objective of the committee is to raise the bar on how animal welfare implications are considered as policy across government, and how that is made and implemented. This task demands that the committee’s members have a breadth of expertise and experience.
The committee will, of course, not exist in isolation. I hope it reassures a number of noble Lords that the committee will be able to consult other able external specialists as required. If, for example, the committee felt that it wanted to reach out to a government advisory body such as the Animal Health and Welfare Board, it would be free to do so. We want to ensure that there are high-quality applicants for vacancies on the committee, and we want to find the very best people for the role. We also want to future-proof the committee as far as possible. As our scientific understanding of sentience develops, so too could the appropriate balance of expertise. That is crucial. If we restrict the membership of the committee to just a few types of people, that may not be appropriate in the future.
I turn to some of the other suggestions made by the noble Baroness. I can assure her that the Secretary of State will appoint no MPs to the committee. I clearly take the point of my noble friend Lord Caithness that there are Members of this House who have or might have in future the kind of expertise we are looking for, but I want to keep politics out of it. We politicians are not always known for our strict impartiality. We will have to find other means to contribute to the animal welfare cause. However, as we all know, there are Members of this House who are not affiliated to any political party.
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The noble Baroness’s amendment talks about powers for the committee to request information from the Government. The committee may request any information which would assist it in producing its reports. In the vast majority of cases, the committee can expect to receive what it asks for, but, on occasion, there may be perfectly legitimate grounds for government departments to withhold information—for example, as I said previously, national security and commercial confidentiality.
If government departments do not provide good reasons for withholding certain information, the committee, frankly, can use its report to name and shame. Ministers would need to address that criticism in their statements to Parliament, allowing MPs and Peers to form their own judgment. The committee has the absolute right to do this. There is no need to spell it out in the Bill.
I can confirm that the Bill, as drafted, most definitely allows the committee to make recommendations relating to positive effects that policy may have on animal welfare. An adverse effect can be taken to mean a missed opportunity to bring about a positive effect. I am of one mind with the noble Baroness that the committee should be free to consider positive effects and am happy to confirm that it will be encouraged to do so.
I can also confirm that it will receive all the administrative resource it needs to do its job. This will include a dedicated secretariat. Committees such as this are financed, as I said earlier, from the sponsoring department’s budget. I repeat that, while this committee is hugely important, it is not an operational or policy-making body, which, under the public bodies handbook, would require the use of parliamentary time to set a specific budget.
More generally, I understand that your Lordships are keen to have further detail on how the committee will function and its ways of working. We intend these details to be set out in the terms of reference for the committee, which will be shared in draft before the Bill returns to the House for Report.
Finally, I thank my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering for Amendment 13, concerning the organisation of the animal sentience committee. Rural-proofing is my responsibility in Defra. My noble friend Lord Caithness talked about a rural-proofing committee, which does not actually exist; there is a Rural Affairs Board, chaired by one of our non-executive directors, Lizzie Noel, and I am the Minister responsible for making sure that rural-proofing works. I intend to carry it out to the best of my ability right across government. It is really important to us and is very relevant to the ambitions of the Government in areas such as levelling-up, so I can assure my noble friend that this is important to me and I will keep the House informed. However, there is no committee vying for funds, if you like, against this one.
There are some valuable suggestions in my noble friend Lady McIntosh’s amendment. I agree with her that the chair of the committee should have some input into how it is configured and that the committee should have space to decide its working methods. However, this flexibility will be easier to provide without
prescribing the structure of the committee in detail in statute, as this amendment would do. Appointments to the committee will be a matter for the Secretary of State, and it would be only natural to consult the sitting chair. We do not need provision in the Bill to tell us that. The Governance Code on Public Appointments provides a robust framework. The Secretary of State will determine remuneration and conditions for committee members in line with the governance code and current practice for similar bodies supported by Defra.
I also respectfully wonder whether it is necessary to include such detailed provision on the structure of the committee in legislation. We fully intend to ensure that it has the resources and expertise necessary to fulfil its functions, but we are not seeking to create a sprawling, multi-tiered organisation. Does the committee need a chair and a chief executive, executive members and non-executive members? I would rather it were free to adopt a streamlined structure which allows it to focus on its core responsibilities.
I hope I have given some reassurance to your Lordships and that my noble friend Lord Forsyth will feel able to withdraw his amendment and other noble Lords not to press theirs.