My Lords, I thank noble Lords for the comments in this debate,
which, as they may imagine, I have listened to with a certain lack of enjoyment. If I may, I will come back to the substance of that later.
I thank my noble friend Lady Noakes and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town, for their Amendments 45, 46, 63 and 68, which concern the regulators that the Bill applies to, as well as the duties on those regulators to publish information. I will start with Amendment 45, which concerns Clause 8 and the duty of a regulator to publish information on requirements to practise. We might remind ourselves of the purposes of this clause. Clause 8 is first and foremost about increasing transparency. It does this by requiring regulators of professions in all parts of the UK to publish information on the entry and practice requirements of professions. This is in direct response to our evidence-gathering. We found a complex regulatory landscape—I think the whole Committee would agree with that—which is difficult for professionals and aspiring professionals to navigate. Some regulators already publish the information listed in Clause 8, and those that do not should be able to prepare it within the six months of lead time set out in the commencement provisions relating to the clause.
The amendment’s explanatory statement by my noble friend Lady Noakes helpfully clarifies that “persons” means “professional bodies”, but I remind the Committee that many professional bodies regulate on a voluntary basis and not by law. The core principle of the Bill—I will come back to this again later—is that it applies to those regulators which are regulated by law in whole or part. The Bill does not apply to many of them because they regulate on a voluntary basis and so fall outside the duty to publish information under Clause 8. The amendment could create new burdens on bodies not covered by law in any other way.
Moreover, Clause 8 already makes provision, where there is more than one regulator involved in the regulation of a profession, for just one to publish the transparency information required. My noble friend Lady Noakes is seeking to provide for a similar effect with her amendment to a wider group of organisations in this space but, with all due respect, it is not necessary.
Amendment 46 concerns Clause 9 and the duty of a regulator to provide information when requested to a corresponding regulator in another part of the UK. This information helps regulators to check things like fitness to practise when a professional moves between jurisdictions within the UK. The amendment would apply these provisions to “another person or persons”—suggested in the explanatory statement to be professional bodies. Once again, this blurring of the nature of the bodies to which the Bill applies is unhelpful. Indeed, in this case it creates risks.
The clause places a specific duty on a defined regulator to make sure that important information is shared when requested. This might be critical to protect the public from harm. This amendment creates ambiguity around which body must fulfil the duty. It also introduces “must seek to ensure” into the provision. I do not believe this is enough. If there is more than one regulator or professional body involved in regulating a profession, then the law must be clear on who must provide the relevant information; it should be the regulator of the specific professional activity regulated in law. This is
important to make sure necessary checks are done on professionals in a timely way. This clause is particularly important where a professional activity is regulated by different regulators in different parts of the UK. At our last count, the number of “corresponding” regulators this amendment would apply to was around 25. The provision in the clause is important, but any burden arising from it will be very limited.
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town, for her Amendments 63 and 68, which seek to remove the definition of when a profession is regulated by law in Clause 16 and add a schedule listing the regulators to which the Bill applies. I think we have all learned things through the passage of this Bill. In particular, I have learned that a definition which was apparently clear-cut on when
“a profession is regulated by law”
has taken this amount of time to establish.
As the noble Baroness said, the list in the proposed schedule in her amendment is the same as the list of professions and regulators in the letter which I placed in the House of Lords Library on 24 May. Actually, I indicated at that time that this was not the final list:
“The following table is comprised of over 160 professions and more than 50 regulators that BEIS consider fall within this definition”—
the definition regulated by law—
“and is the product of engagement with other departments, regulators and external organisations. Please note that BEIS are still conducting assurance work to confirm the professions and regulators to which the Bill will apply … The list below should be considered indicative only.”
I think that was the appropriate health warning to put on that letter. A very detailed exercise has been going on across Whitehall to confirm who is covered by law, which, as I said earlier, one would have thought it would be straightforward to find out. A very detailed exercise has been going on to update that letter, which was indicative, and to make the letter I have now sent as accurate as possible—although even that letter may still need some updating around the margin going forward.
In order to achieve this list, we have had to work with a large number of government departments and the regulators. This thorough mapping of the landscape of regulated professions has not been done properly, I have written down here, “for far too long”. I wonder whether it has ever been done properly at all before now. Yet this list of regulators regulated by law was the list to which the European Union regulations applied. What has come to light, frankly, during this process, is that not all regulators have a copy of the list of the professions which they regulate. The list of professions attached to this list has come from the regulators and, quite rightly and properly, the GMC drew attention to the fact that some extra medical professions needed to be included in the list. Furthermore, not all departments had full visibility of which regulators that fell under their purview were covered by law.
I accept, without reservation, that it is not good enough that these lists have been incomplete and that noble Lords must have felt they were playing a game of blind man’s buff in trying to see who the Bill applies to. Of course, as a Minister on the Front Bench, it has been uncomfortable to sit here and listen to the quite
reasonable points made by my noble friend Lady Noakes, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town, the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, and others.
This list must be put into good shape. By the mere act of our working through this Bill and unearthing these matters—in the way that our House is here to do—we are doing a good job. The landscape is complex, but by the time we have finished the Bill, I believe we will have learned all there is to learn about regulated activities, and this rather technical matter about which regulators and professions are covered by law.
Since the first letter, there have been, as I have mentioned, some changes to the indicative list, with some more regulators coming on to it. We have now identified close to 60 regulators—I think it is 55 or 56 —and more than 190 professions as falling within the ambit of the Bill. I placed an updated list in the House of Lords Library yesterday. I thought noble Lords would congratulate me on working at the weekend on a Bill as important as this; I now have almost perfect knowledge of when noble Lords eat their lunch on a Sunday. I have asked my officials to keep the list under review as they continue their work with national authorities and regulators. Certainly, I would not want to be the Minister who took this Bill forward without knowing to whom it applied. I will, of course, inform noble Lords if further updates are made.
Actually, the vast majority of the professions and regulators contained in the indicative letter I shared on 20 June are the same as those I shared in the indicative letter of 23 May. As I said, we have done further work with departments to assess where existing legislation will mean that the Bill applies to certain professions and to determine the relevant regulators. This is detailed work that has drawn on expertise from many departments.
In answer to the point of my noble friend Lady McIntosh about animals—the virtual zoo to which she referred—whether or not an animal or a farmer falls under regulations that are governed by law is a matter for legislation that is owned by Defra, which at certain times in the past must have considered it appropriate to put an animal or an activity into its statutes. It is not something that I or my department have taken a value judgment on in relation to the list that should be included in the Bill.
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I reassure noble Lords that my officials have already been in discussion with the small number of regulators that came to light to make sure they understand the implications of the Bill. As I say, the vast majority of professional activities and regulators on the list have not changed. I asked officials to review whether the small number of changes have significantly affected the costs and benefits of the impact assessment. We believe that the transitional costs of revoking the current arrangements and the costs of the transparency requirements and information-sharing requirements may increase slightly, but by a very small percentage. Many of the costs will be unchanged.
Having given some explanation of where we are and how uncomfortable I have felt about this, I turn now to the detail of the amendments. I have concerns about the proposed approach. Inadequate though it
must seem to noble Lords, having listened to us get to this point, I have to say that I still prefer the definition-based approach—a regulator which is regulated in law—because it ensures that no provision is overlooked. This means that national authorities and regulators will have to consider carefully, as they should, whether each professional activity for which they are responsible meets the definition of regulated professions set out in the Bill. The question I would ask is not why the Bill has brought this to light, but why have not national authorities, professions and regulators had these facts at their fingertips before now.
We will absolutely continue the detailed mapping of the landscape and support national authorities and regulators to deepen their understanding of their responsibilities. I believe that this definition-based approach, regulated in law, is future-proof. If and when a new professional activity is regulated or even deregulated, or its name changes, the Bill will not need to be amended. There will be no need to pass regulations to amend a schedule for what might be quite trivial reasons. Having said that, I completely and utterly accept that it must be reasonable for there to be easily accessible and in the public domain an overview of which professional activities and regulators the Bill applies to. I will think further about whether it is best done through GOV.UK or through the assistance centre, which I know some noble Lords have mixed feelings about, but it must be done somewhere where it is completely visible, can be updated easily and can sit alongside other information and guidance about professional qualifications.
I believe that we should stick with the definition-based approach. I should publish an updated live list and do all that can be humanly done to make sure that it is complete, but I believe that it is unnecessary, and indeed would be unhelpful in terms of keeping that list up to date, for it to be put into law. What should be in law is the definition of a profession that is regulated by law, and the consequences of what is in law should be available publicly.
Before I close, I turn to the powerful points made by my noble friend Lord Moynihan in relation to ski instructors and some ancillary points made by the noble Lord, Lord Fox. I understand, of course, the concern that my noble friend feels. I have had a number of letters about this myself and will ensure that we look at it again properly. I will consult our posts in the countries concerned and look at whether there is anything else we can do. I will report back in writing and copy that to other Peers who have spoken on this topic.
Again, I apologise to the House that the initial list was indicative. I hope that noble Lords know that I have eaten a fair amount of humble pie in trying to explain why we have got to where we are.
I can answer the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, quickly on his point about lawyers and the Australian free trade agreement. I am told that the agreement we have reached is so far only an agreement in principle. It will contain provisions on legal services, as we have heard, but it will not confer the automatic ability for Australian lawyers to practise law in the UK. We will have to wait for publication of the text to have the fine detail but, coming back to our favourite word, I hope I can assuage the noble Lord’s mind on that.
I hope that my explanation in relation to Amendments 45, 46, 63 and 68 has been helpful. I ask that my noble friend Lady Noakes and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town, withdraw and do not press their amendments.