My Lords, I first endorse the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, whose comments in this area are very important.
I know that it is not in order in these proceedings to intervene on other Members, but I was itching to intervene on the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, because no one in this Chamber, notwithstanding the Grimstone rule holder, understands the CRaG process more. My question, which I will leave hanging—or convert into a question to the Minister—is as follows. My reading of the Bill is that it does not necessarily mean that an international recognition agreement will be considered a treaty under CRaG. A CRaG definition of “treaty” is any international agreement between member states or an international organisation. It does not include any agreement under an existing treaty—so, if we have a treaty with a country with which a mutual recognition agreement is subsequently signed, that does not necessarily need to go through the CRaG process. The international recognition agreement under this legislation does not necessarily state that that will be the case. My question was going to be on that, but the Minister can get back to me in writing at some stage; the hour is getting late, so he does need to reply today.
This may be of significance when it comes to scrutiny. To take the example of Canada, let us say that a subsequent agreement under the aegis of the Canada agreement expanding the mutual recognition elements would not be considered under CRaG but would trigger the regulation-making power in this area, which means we would still need to consider scrutiny. That is important because, when I looked at what the international recognition agreement stipulates on the activation of these powers, Clause 3(4) refers to
“the recognition of overseas qualifications or overseas experience”,
and that is it. It does not include fitness to practise and all the other areas the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, alluded to, which are currently covered under the statutory protection for regulators to consider the fitness of someone who is applying, including their past record.
I was pleased that my noble friend Lady Randerson and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, raised this, because my document of choice for the day—the Department of Health’s consultation document—is quite clear on the Government’s intention to expand the role of regulators to have wider remit in considering the setting of standards and outcomes for quality assuring education and training, both pre and post-application. Indeed, the regulators would be able to have a view not just on the qualification of an applicant but on the appropriate education and training standards that the person went through to reach that qualification. In my view, that is important for the very point the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, indicated.
Simply recognising an overseas qualification under an international agreement is way below what our current regulators look at when they take into consideration the standards of the education that led to that qualification. We have had scandals in this country, with Oxford colleges and others, which required the Government to go beyond the previous scandals that simply accepted a qualification. Now we look at the underlying quality assurance of the courses, the programmes of training and the education and training providers. Indeed, the Government say:
“We propose that all regulators should have the power to approve, refuse, re-approve, withdraw approval, monitor and quality assure courses, programmes of training, qualifications and education and training providers. Where relevant, these powers should also apply to post-registration courses, programmes of training, qualifications and post-registration education”.
If an international agreement with a country was simply about the recognition of the qualification, that is a diminution rather than a maintenance or enhancement. I think the points have been very well made, and I hope the Minister will be able to respond.
I think that the Minister said “never”. I have been in this House for seven years, and Ministers rarely use the word “never”. In fact, they never use that word, not least because they cannot bind their successor Governments. I have found that they rarely bind their successors as Ministers—but the Minister did do that. He said that it would never impact on what Governments would tell regulators about how they handled applications; they would never change the wider duties on regulators for the decisions made in an application; and they would not impact on the powers in connection with an application. If that is the case, why are those three specific provisions in Clause 1? Subsection (5)(f) means that the powers will be about a specific person, and that a regulator would
“have regard to guidance issued from time to time by a specified person”—
as in the Minister—
“when determining an application”.
Subsection (5)(g) refers to a
“provision as to the other duties of a specified regulator in connection with an application”.
Subsection (5)(h) likewise refers to a
“provision as to the powers of a specified regulator”.
So if the Minister is right that these regulations would never be used to do it, why are they in the Bill? I think that, as we heard under the previous group of amendments, they should be taken out.
9.45 pm
I wanted to raise something with regard to the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter. She made the case very well with regard to the Government really now needing to provide the list of the regulators that the powers will be used for for the restrictions. The Government either know and are not telling us or, if they do not know, how are they planning to meet the demand that they say is there?
At Second Reading, my noble friend quoted a former US Defence Secretary saying that there are known knowns and known unknowns. But through
the Government’s scheme we have the shortage of occupations list, and we have the Government indicating in their policy statement how they are going to move towards defining need. Page 9 of the policy statement, in the section “Meeting skills demands”—and in my mind this is a bit of a giveaway—says:
“There are several professions which have high demand for labour supply, and which require professionals from overseas to deliver important domestic services.”
That is the reality of what the Government are wanting to use this for and, therefore, this is in their policy statement. We know that in the impact assessment the Government are forecasting through the Home Office—because it is from the Government—a 70% reduction in EEA applications. That is through the new skilled worker visa system from the Home Office. So it is not just the case, as my noble friend indicated, that we are likely to see a reduction in those existing workers carrying on working; the Government themselves have deliberately got a new system to reduce those applications coming in. As we know, that will create a very considerable problem.
But it is even worse than that, because the impact assessment says:
“There are over 90 regulators which regulate over 140 professions not likely to be included in the new framework”.
So we have the entire list of the shortage and the expanded use of defining what the demand is going to be but, as the Government say, there are 90 regulators of 140 professions that will not be covered in the framework. I do not know how the Government intend to meet the demand in those areas. If you add the combination of the new restrictive measures of the Home Office for EEA staff, plus the fact that 90 of those are not going to be in the framework, can the Minister confirm how we are going to meet the demand?