My Lords, I am pleased to be part of this debate, which is narrow in some senses but has the capacity to reach quite widely. It is narrow in the sense that it has been framed through Amendments 103 and 104, which I broadly support, about the need to try and get more of an impact assessment model into the way in which we review the changes that may come through as a result of the return to the UK of powers previously exercised at EU level. It also raises much wider issues, which I will come to before I end my short contribution to this debate.
I am sure that the case made by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, is about good government. Better regulation was always part of the argument she used when she was a Minister. I well remember the discussions we had across the Dispatch Box about intellectual property, in both primary and subsequently secondary legislation. The material on this was much enhanced by the good work done by her civil servants in bringing forward some of the issues raised and trying to give them a quantitative—not just qualitative—feel when the debates were organised. A lot of the work that they do on better regulation does not get properly recognised, and this is a good opportunity to pay tribute to it. As an example, I particularly enjoyed the annual work that I was often asked to do in relation to the setting of the national minimum wage, now the national living wage. It was always accompanied by a formidable document, created mainly I think by the Low Pay Commission but endorsed by civil servants. It went into every conceivable aspect of the way in which the setting of a minimum threshold for wages would, or could, affect the labour market, with particular reference to women and other low-paid groups in society. It was always a red-letter day in my diary when I saw that coming up; I knew that I was going to be given a very meaty topic to research, read up on and debate. I enjoyed the debates that we had on that.
While I say yes to the thrust of what is being said here, and recognise the benefits that will come from good impact assessments, properly debated, particularly in relation to the regulatory framework in the Bill,
I wonder whether there is a slight irony here. The substance of what the noble Baroness is saying in her amendment is that better scrutiny of proposals brought forward for legislation—and, of course, for secondary legislation —would happen if there were better impact assessments. I say in passing, and in reverse order, that a secondary instrument is very much a creature of the primary legislation that has preceded it. It is not uncommon to find in SI impact assessments binary choices, usually not very helpful in detailed essence. The proposition set up in the impact assessment is often, “What would happen if this legislation did not go through?” and then “What will happen when it does go through?” In other words, if there is a change in regulations, you impact; no change and you impact the change. You do not get a range of options.
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That range probably ought to come in the primary legislation discussion, but very often, of course, there is the tyranny of the Bill—which is my term for the way in which Ministers often defend, beyond the point of any reasonable, rational position, the wording of the Bills they are presenting, simply because they have been told by their civil servants, “Ah, Minister, if you give way on this point, your credibility will be shredded, you’ll never be able to stand up in the House and defend any Bill, you can’t let even this comma be changed to a full stop; please don’t even go down that route.” I exaggerate slightly to make the point, but I see from the grins around the table from those who have been Ministers that this is not an uncommon experience. The tyranny of the Bill, and the inability to model it for what could happen if you flexed it slightly, is often a restriction on good debate and scrutiny.
In fact, the most likely option for further work in this area would probably come with pre-legislative scrutiny, which has gone out of fashion recently but I hope will come back. We know for certain that we will get the online standards Bill for pre-legislative scrutiny. I would like to play a part in that, and declare my interest. That would be the point at which some modelling of the impacts of what would happen on various ranges of options might be allowable, and would not be subject to the constraints that I have been talking about in how legislation gets nailed down too quickly and the chances for changing and discussing it are very limited. However, I am wittering on about a pet topic and I should not do that when we are short of time for the Bill and the Committee needs to progress.
I will also say in passing that it is easy to criticise the Government for the work they do, but I am absolutely at one with the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, in saying that we need good, intelligent impact assessments, and I welcome her idea in Amendment 104 of an annual report on the work done in relation to financial regulation, because, taken piece by piece, it is sometimes a bit difficult to get the hang of it. The requirement to do an annual report on all the changes that have gone through and to have to evaluate whether they have been successful or not would give value, and I support her in that.
This has been an interesting debate; I am glad the noble Baroness has raised the issue and I hope that the Minister will make a good response that will give hope for some movement in this area.