My Lords, before I address the specific amendments in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay and Lady Bowles, I will make an observation on the ruling from the Deputy Speaker on the previous group, when the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, sought to withdraw his amendment. It directly relates to this because, for all I know, the same might happen in this case, too. I put on record for future discussions
the question of why, as is the normal practice of the House, amendments are not the property of the House once they have been moved.
I understand that was the case when, on 26 November, the noble Lord, Lord Woolley, moved his amendment in the ping-pong on the Parliamentary Constituencies Bill. He sought to withdraw it, but other noble Lords were not content that he should and the House then voted on it. I do not understand the difference between what happened on 26 November on the Parliamentary Constituencies Bill and what happened today when the noble and learned Lord sought to withdraw his amendment. I think this is quite an important point about the procedure of the House and whether, on significant issues of this kind, the House, rather than an individual noble Lord, has responsibility for amendments that have been moved.
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Similar issues apply to these two amendments. The essential issue in respect of both is the one that was at stake in respect of the previous amendment in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas: are we prepared to accept from Ministers assurances on consultation when, to be absolutely blunt, we do not entirely trust their bona fides, or do we think that the right thing to do is to put on the face of the Bill requirements for consultation?
The issue in respect of state aid is more serious. As the noble and learned Lord has just stressed, and as the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, noted in her opening remarks, the issue of state aid and subsidies is not, under the devolution Acts, reserved to the United Kingdom Government. It not being reserved to the United Kingdom Government, the presumption should therefore be that it is devolved, and, that being so, it is absolutely right and reasonable that the devolved Governments should formally, on the face of the legislation, be required to be consulted before new rules on state aid are made. Therefore, the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, is absolutely appropriate, as it would require the consent of the devolved Ministers within a period of 18 months, so she has a process for resolution if agreement cannot be reached. I also support the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, which would require the process by which changes are made to be subject to explicit parliamentary debate and consent.
These are not small issues. I know that, as always at this stage of Bills, there is a desire to try to hustle things through at the end, but these are fundamental issues relating to the devolution settlement and its relationship to Brexit in the years ahead. It is absolutely right that we should spend time in this House debating these fundamental constitutional issues and not take vague assurances from Ministers, many of whom—let us be absolutely frank—do not particularly believe in devolution.
I suspect that that is true of the Minister who is addressing the House today. I know him well enough to say that I do not think he particularly believes in devolution and would like the chance to row it all back and simply decree things from the centre. I give him the benefit of my respect for him. I do not think that
he does any of the waffle, saying that they are going to consult SNP Ministers in Edinburgh and Labour Ministers in Cardiff and take their advice seriously. That is not how he does politics; he does politics from the centre, just like the Prime Minister, who said that devolution was “Blair’s biggest mistake”, letting the cat out of the bag as to what he really thinks. I think that this Minister probably takes the same view.
That is all the more reason why this House and Parliament should not simply accept vague assurances made by the Minister and the Prime Minister about consultation on devolution. We should rightly fear that what will happen is the ripping up of fundamental principles in respect of devolution as part of this Brexit mania, in which people seem to believe that only things decided by UK Ministers sitting in Whitehall offices should happen within the territory of the United Kingdom. If that happens—and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, were absolutely right to say it—we will see the systematic undermining of the devolution settlement, and that could fundamentally destabilise the Government of the United Kingdom.
Therefore, big, centrally important constitutional principles are at stake here, and I will strongly support both the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay and Lady Bowles, if they press their amendments to a vote. It is very important that noble Lords are on the record as to their position when it comes to defending and taking forward the devolution settlement in our United Kingdom.