My Lords, this is the first time I speak on the Bill; I apologise to noble Lords that I have not done so before. I am prompted to do so because of the references that have been made in this debate and in some of the amendments to the EU International Agreements Sub-Committee, which I have the honour to chair. I want to speak not so much about the detail of some of the amendments —I cannot speak with the authority of the committee as it has not taken views on some of them as such—but to lay down a marker. If some of these amendments come back on Report, I may well not be quite so reticent.
I will make some basic points about the job that we have now been tasked to do by your Lordships’ House, which is to scrutinise international agreements—not simply trade agreements, although they are obviously an important part of that. Reference has already been made to the debate which took place on 7 September, if my memory serves me right, on three reports: the report that we had produced on Treaty Scrutiny: Working Practices, alongside the report of the Constitution Committee, which is chaired by my noble friend Lady Taylor of Bolton, and the Lessons Learned report of your Lordships’ EU Committee. As we noted in our report, which is the most recent of them, at paragraph 23:
“all three reports called for greater transparency; a role for Parliament much earlier in the process of negotiating international agreements; and a proper role for the devolved institutions. Significant
concerns were also expressed as to whether it was possible to conduct meaningful parliamentary scrutiny within the timetable permitted under the CRAG Act.”
We had a good debate; I repeat the thanks to noble Lords who participated in it. Sadly, the noble Lord, Lord Grimstone, was not the Minister on that occasion, so we did not have the benefit of hearing his responses to those reports—I hope that today will provide an opportunity for him to do so. However, I believe that he shares our belief, if I dare take his name in vain, that parliamentary scrutiny of international agreements is crucial and that we have moved on from the days when it was thought that the sovereign—read now the Executive—could simply enter into agreements without any involvement of Parliament.
I acknowledge that the CRaG process has changed this, at least to some extent. However, it is still ex post facto—after the agreement has been made—which gives rise to the serious problem that Parliament, whether it is the other House or the comments that this House make on it, has to take it or leave it. Under CRaG, strictly interpreted, it is not until the deal is done that the matter is subject to scrutiny, and then, in the case of the other place, the sole weapon is to withhold consent.
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It is worth reflecting for a moment, as we talk about the respective roles of Parliament and the Executive, on what was said a very long time ago by the great constitutional expert Walter Bagehot. He said:
“Treaties are quite as important as most laws, and to require the elaborate assent of representative assemblies to every word of the law, and not to consult them even as to the essence of the treaty, is prima facie ludicrous.”
That makes the point very well that Parliament ought to have a role in the conclusion of international agreements.
When we looked at it, we took a somewhat pragmatic approach. We concluded, as set out in paragraphs 31 and 32 of our report on working practices—if I may direct the Committee’s attention to it—that we appreciated that the Government were
“reluctant to amend the legislative framework and review the timetable for scrutiny”.
So the report set out a series of pragmatic recommendations, which we describe as
“proportionate recommendations to facilitate effective Parliamentary treaty scrutiny, without the need for legislative change.”
We concluded, in paragraph 32, that:
“Time and experience will tell whether it is possible to conduct meaningful scrutiny within the current timescales. Much will depend on how far the Government is willing to share information in advance of laying an agreement under the CRAG Act.”
I immediately recognise, as did the noble Lord, Lord Lansley—who also sits on the committee—a tribute to what has happened so far and particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Grimstone. He has been making an effort to make sure that our committee is kept informed of what is taking place. Indeed, we are due to see him again on Monday. That leaves us following the pragmatic approach to see how it goes. We also gave clear warning in that report that, if we do not think we are able to do the job we have been given, we will not hesitate to push for legislative change. The Bill and the amendments being made may pre-empt that.
I emphasise, as have the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, and the noble Baronesses, Lady McIntosh of Pickering and Lady Smith of Newnham, the big change that has taken place in relation to agreements. It is one of the reasons that our committee was established: no longer will agreements, trade agreements in particular, have the detailed scrutiny that took place through the EU process, which involved Members who pursued British interests. I understand that is why the Government say there is less need for scrutiny of continuity agreements, but we are also looking at the possibility of new agreements. We have already started to inquire into the United States, Australia and New Zealand, where there will not be the benefit of scrutiny engaged in by any EU body.
We very much welcome the approach of the noble Lord, Lord Grimstone, and the department he represents, but whether that is sufficient is under consideration and it is important to know whether it works. Our report raises concerns, some of which have been raised in some of the amendments: consultation of the devolved Administrations; keeping us informed and advised of negotiations; and early sight of the text, because of the timetable. Given those, it follows that, if the Government were to accept, for example, the amendment proposed by my noble friend Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, we would be content. I do not anticipate that happening, but it does not mean that we should not consider the amendments that have been put forward. We will be looking closely at the main issue of the terms and processes for scrutiny. The way we do our work will follow through and, ultimately, take a view on whether there is enough in the process to enable us to do the job that I said we need to do.
Let me turn specifically to one aspect. It seems to me that, in his Amendment 63, the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, is absolutely right. I, too, would expect the Government to allow the time for debate—that is a critical part of the process that we are engaged in—but would it not be better if that were guaranteed, rather than us having to depend on the good will and discretion of the Government?
I too look forward to hearing what the Government say but, overall, this debate and these amendments give the Government an opportunity to show that they are truly committed to the role of Parliament in scrutiny. Obviously, warm words will not be enough, however sincerely they are expressed. Of course I recognise that the roles of the Executive and Parliament are different, but Parliament has a major role in the scrutiny of international agreements, and we hope that the Government will find a way to make sure that that is effective.
I agree with those who have said that, as we have seen in the international comparisons that we have looked at, having parliamentary involvement can give government negotiators a weapon—that is, an additional piece of leverage so that they can tell their interlocutors why they do not think that a particular thing being negotiated for will pass through the parliamentary process.
So I very much look forward to hearing what the noble Lord, Lord Grimstone, and other noble Lords have to say. If we come back to this matter in amendments on Report, I will look forward to saying more about it.