UK Parliament / Open data

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Wednesday, 28 February 2018, in the House of Lords, led by Lord Keen of Elie.
Lords committee stage third day. Amendments to clauses 2 and 3 discussed and withdrawn. New clause 1 discussed and withdrawn. New clause 2 discussed and withdrawn. Clauses 2 and 3 agreed. Part 1 of 2.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
789 cc662-713 
Session
2017-19
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
European Union (Withdrawal) Bill 2017-19. Brought from the Commons.
Thursday, 18 January 2018
Bills
House of Lords
European Union (Withdrawal) Bill. Constitution Committee (HL) ninth report.
Wednesday, 24 January 2018
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee twelfth report.
Wednesday, 31 January 2018
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Pannick | 789 c662 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Pannick

15: Clause 2, page 1, line 12, leave out paragraphs (b) to (d)<...

Lord Pannick | 789 cc662-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, Amendment 15 arises out of the report of your Lordships’ Constitution Committee publish...


Show all contributions (140)
Lord Fowler | 789 c664 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I should notify the Committee that if Amendment 15 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendmen...

Lord Adonis | 789 c664 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the noble Lord Pannick, is a great expert in these matters. Could he give the Committee...

Lord Pannick | 789 c664 (Link to this contribution)

That is a very important question that we are coming to in later amendments. The Constitution Com...

Lord Beith | 789 c665 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I speak as a member of the Constitution Committee to make it clear that the committee w...

Baroness Taylor of Bolton | 789 cc665-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, while I do not want this section of the debate to be dominated by members of the Consti...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 789 cc666-7 (Link to this contribution)

I support the idea that we should get legal certainty in the Bill, and if that damages the intere...

Lord Adonis | 789 c667 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, there is no more terrifying ordeal in your Lordships’ House than intervening in a debat...

Baroness Young of Old Scone | 789 c667 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I repeat the worries about coming in on a debate populated primarily by lawyers, but if...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 789 c667 (Link to this contribution)

I entirely agree with that proposition but since the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, had mentioned it, ...

Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted | 789 cc667-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I do not entirely agree with the Constitution Committee and so, with suitable temerity,...

Lord Beecham | 789 cc669-670 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, your Lordships may have noticed that I am rather short: this afternoon, I can give the ...

Lord Keen of Elie | 789 c670 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am grateful for the contributions from Members of the House with regard to this issue...

Lord Adonis | 789 c670 (Link to this contribution)

For those of us who are uninitiated into this blog, what would that mean?

Lord Keen of Elie | 789 c671 (Link to this contribution)

I am not sure I understand the question.

Lord Adonis | 789 c671 (Link to this contribution)

What would the new status of legislation that the noble and learned Lord has just mentioned be?

Lord Keen of Elie | 789 c671 (Link to this contribution)

Professor Craig addresses a potential categorisation of EU-derived legislation by reference to it...

Baroness Taylor of Bolton | 789 c671 (Link to this contribution)

I think I am following what the Minister is saying, but a moment ago he used the phrase “legislat...

Lord Keen of Elie | 789 c671 (Link to this contribution)

It is only that part of the legislation which is derived from the EU which is then brought in and...

Baroness Taylor of Bolton | 789 c672 (Link to this contribution)

I accept that, but the Minister is assuming that legislation is always very neatly compartmentali...

Baroness Ludford | 789 c672 (Link to this contribution)

Could I just follow on from that by expressing a related concern? We know what the Government’s a...

Lord Keen of Elie | 789 c672 (Link to this contribution)

I am not sure I agree with that proposition. But of course, at the end of the day, pursuant to Cl...

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 789 c672 (Link to this contribution)

I am really interested in what the noble and learned Lord has just said. Could he explain what th...

Lord Keen of Elie | 789 cc672-4 (Link to this contribution)

I am obliged to the noble Lord. I would never say anything in this House as a law officer. It is ...

Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood | 789 c674 (Link to this contribution)

I seek clarification from the noble and learned Lord. As I understand it, the words “so far as”, ...

Lord Keen of Elie | 789 c674 (Link to this contribution)

That is indeed my reading. The noble Baroness alluded to this earlier in her contribution. That i...

Lord Pannick | 789 cc674-5 (Link to this contribution)

I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to what has been a valuable debate, including the no...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 789 c675 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Wallace of Tankerness

16: Clause 2, page 1, line 12, after “passed” ins...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 789 cc675-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the amendment stands in my name and that of the noble Lords, Lord Foulkes, Lord Adonis ...

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 789 c676 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am really grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, himself...

Lord Keen of Elie | 789 cc676-7 (Link to this contribution)

I am obliged to the noble and learned Lord and the noble Lord not only for explaining the amendme...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 789 c677 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord. He does get my point that it is for clarity; in Sect...

Lord Keen of Elie | 789 cc677-8 (Link to this contribution)

I am obliged to the noble and learned Lord. I do not have any red lines so far as Clause 2 is con...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 789 c678 (Link to this contribution)

I am very grateful to the noble and learned Lord for his response and his willingness to look at ...

Lord Adonis | 789 c678 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I do not intend to speak to whether Clause 2 should stand part of the Bill.

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 789 cc678-9 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

18: After Clause 2, insert the following new ...

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 789 cc679-680 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am delighted to speak to Amendment 18 in my name before the Committee this afternoon....

Lord Wigley | 789 c680 (Link to this contribution)

I support the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, which seeks to clarify the status o...

Lord Pannick | 789 c680 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am doubtful about this amendment for two reasons. The first is that the whole purpose...

Lord Lea of Crondall | 789 c680 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, perhaps I might check that, in interpreting the clause as it now stands, it is not poss...

Lord Liddle | 789 c681 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, for many of us, this is a seminar and we are hoping to learn quite a lot from noble and...

Lord Adonis | 789 c681 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. For those of us who are not lawyers and are uninitiat...

Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood | 789 c681 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, further to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, as I have said before, this B...

Baroness Young of Old Scone | 789 c682 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I want to add to the voices of those who have said that there is a lack of clarity and ...

Lord Deben | 789 cc682-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I draw the attention of the House to my declaration of interests. I declare an interest...

Lord Pannick | 789 c683 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord is undoubtedly right that there will be instruments in Brussels to which we have c...

Lord Deben | 789 c683 (Link to this contribution)

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, on that. However, the problem comes when an agreement ...

Baroness Smith of Newnham | 789 cc683-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support the amendment and declare my interest as being employed by Cambridge Universi...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 789 c684 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is fairly clear that this Bill already has enough to do in trying to deal with the s...

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 789 c684 (Link to this contribution)

Is my noble and learned friend saying that the United Kingdom Government should absent themselves...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 789 cc684-5 (Link to this contribution)

The problem about the arbitrary date is that it is rather an important one because it is when we ...

Lord Deben | 789 c685 (Link to this contribution)

Does my noble and learned friend agree that my noble friend Lady McIntosh has raised an issue tha...

Baroness Ludford | 789 c685 (Link to this contribution)

Before the noble and learned Lord answers that point, I add a further complication. Whether we ag...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 789 c685 (Link to this contribution)

The legal obligation would cease on Brexit day. That is the situation. Unless something has been ...

Lord Adonis | 789 c685 (Link to this contribution)

Does the noble and learned Lord think that there is a distinction between those directives that w...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 789 c685 (Link to this contribution)

If it is implemented before the 29th it is part of our law.

Lord Adonis | 789 c685 (Link to this contribution)

What if the obligation to implement them is before that date, but we have not fulfilled that obli...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 789 c685 (Link to this contribution)

The question does not arise if they have not been adopted before. The amendment deals only with d...

Baroness Young of Old Scone | 789 c686 (Link to this contribution)

I would like some technical clarification on this. My understanding of the example I gave is that...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 789 c686 (Link to this contribution)

I am beginning to find myself answering questions that I should pass on to my noble and learned f...

Lord Davies of Stamford | 789 c686 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am still not quite convinced by the explanation of the noble and learned Lord, Lord M...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 789 c686 (Link to this contribution)

If it has become part of our law, even if it is postponed, it is subject to this Bill. If it has ...

Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted | 789 c686 (Link to this contribution)

I would quite like to complicate matters a little further. It is unfortunate that the word “snaps...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 789 c687 (Link to this contribution)

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, says that he is confused about the transiti...

Lord Deben | 789 c687 (Link to this contribution)

Will the noble Baroness be kind enough to make a distinction between these things? It seems to me...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 789 c688 (Link to this contribution)

I agree: the Committee will be pleased to know that, had the letter ended like that, I would not ...

Lord Keen of Elie | 789 c688 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am obliged to all sides of the Committee for their contributions to this part of the ...

Baroness Ludford | 789 c688 (Link to this contribution)

Nobody, I think, has questioned that. We are talking about directives.

Lord Keen of Elie | 789 cc688-9 (Link to this contribution)

That is what we began talking about but the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, for example, has referre...

Lord Pannick | 789 c689 (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps I might suggest to the Minister, and ask him to confirm, that there will also be directiv...

Lord Keen of Elie | 789 c689 (Link to this contribution)

With respect, that is a slightly different point. First, the Government are committed to implemen...

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 789 c689 (Link to this contribution)

Both my noble and learned friend the Minister and my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay have in...

Lord Keen of Elie | 789 c689 (Link to this contribution)

There is no legal basis for doing so. With great respect to my noble friend, her amendment would ...

Lord Wigley | 789 c689 (Link to this contribution)

Following this is fairly complicated, is it not? To add to that complication, what will be the po...

Lord Keen of Elie | 789 c690 (Link to this contribution)

We have to be clear here about the distinction between implementation and application. Essentiall...

Lord Wigley | 789 c690 (Link to this contribution)

I do not want to overlabour this point, and perhaps it is one that the Minister could look at bet...

Lord Keen of Elie | 789 c690 (Link to this contribution)

If I understand the noble Lord’s point, he is suggesting that we may have a situation in which a ...

Lord Wigley | 789 c690 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, indeed, or it may have failed to have been implemented within the timeframe in one area and ...

Lord Keen of Elie | 789 c690 (Link to this contribution)

In that event, it will be by reference to the exit date that we determine whether or not it forms...

Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 789 c690 (Link to this contribution)

I wonder if the Minister could deal with one category which I do not think he has dealt with yet;...

Lord Keen of Elie | 789 c690 (Link to this contribution)

The implementation period is a wholly distinct issue from what we have to address in the context ...

Lord Adonis | 789 c691 (Link to this contribution)

For those of us who have not been following the minutiae of the Government’s announcements, can t...

Lord Keen of Elie | 789 c691 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, my understanding is that the Government are determined, and have the present intention,...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 789 c691 (Link to this contribution)

I express my gratitude and admiration for the way that the noble and learned Lords, Lord Mackay o...

Lord Keen of Elie | 789 cc691-2 (Link to this contribution)

No, that would not be covered, because in those circumstances there would have been no crystallis...

Baroness Ludford | 789 c692 (Link to this contribution)

Will the Minister take another look at Clause 4(2)(b), which is a double negative? It talks about...

Lord Keen of Elie | 789 c692 (Link to this contribution)

In my submission, it fits entirely with what is said in Clause 4(2)(b) and is consistent with tha...

Lord Pannick | 789 c692 (Link to this contribution)

This is the precise subject of Amendment 26, which arises out of a recommendation from the Consti...

Lord Keen of Elie | 789 c692 (Link to this contribution)

I am obliged to the noble Lord, but we have ranged rather widely in the context of the present de...

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 789 c693 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to all those who have spoken in this debate. I had not realised that we were going ...

Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 789 c693 (Link to this contribution)

I cannot call Amendment 20A, as it is an amendment to Amendment 20.

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 789 cc693-4 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town

21: After Clause 3, insert the following new...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 789 cc694-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this amendment has support from across the House: it is supported by the noble Lords, L...

Lord Cashman | 789 c696 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Cashman

22: After the new clause, at end insert—

“( ) human right...

Lord Cashman | 789 c696 (Link to this contribution)

This amendment is in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Kennedy. I agree wholeheartedly wit...

Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate | 789 cc697-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, on Amendment 21. I do not intend in my remar...

Lord Pannick | 789 c698 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I too support Amendments 21 and 22, which would restrict the powers of Ministers to mod...

Lord Davies of Stamford | 789 cc698-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the support of the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope, for the amendment will be welcome. It ref...

Lord Liddle | 789 c699 (Link to this contribution)

Would my noble friend give way? I want to be helpful to his argument. He refers to Professor Minf...

Lord Davies of Stamford | 789 c699 (Link to this contribution)

I think that was an intervention. I gave way believing that it was.

Lord Liddle | 789 c699 (Link to this contribution)

It was to help my noble friend, yes.

Lord Davies of Stamford | 789 cc699-700 (Link to this contribution)

I do not know whether or not to be pleased by that remark. It was very kind of my noble friend to...

Lord True | 789 c700 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, has the noble Lord considered that, rather than resorting to his mythical thing of worr...

Baroness Smith of Newnham | 789 cc700-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, we have already heard that this amendment is necessary, for some of the reasons that th...

Earl of Listowel | 789 c701 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, in considering how to deal with this legislation in future, will the Government keep ve...

Viscount Trenchard | 789 cc701-2 (Link to this contribution)

I agree with what the noble Earl said about the balance between work life and family life, partic...

Lord Judd | 789 c702 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 23A but, before I do so, I should like to say how much I adm...

Baroness Drake | 789 cc702-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 21. The Bill gives Ministers what the Constitution Committee...

Baroness Ludford | 789 c705 (Link to this contribution)

Before the noble Baroness sits down, I invite her to agree with me that the fears that she raises...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 789 c705 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, three pretty clear themes are emerging around the House. First, you should be able to u...

Lord Faulks | 789 cc705-6 (Link to this contribution)

The Bingham Centre makes the very cogent point that there is no clear analysis so far as to what ...

Lord Cashman | 789 c706 (Link to this contribution)

I precisely did not elaborate on the reasons why, as I felt that I did that at some length on Mon...

Lord Faulks | 789 c706 (Link to this contribution)

The Human Rights Act is expressly preserved as a result of the changes that the Bill is going to ...

Lord Pannick | 789 c706 (Link to this contribution)

Given the noble Lord’s objections to the drafting of this amendment, does he sympathise, as I do,...

Lord Faulks | 789 c706 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful for that intervention. I am certainly receptive to the possibility of some restrict...

Lord Bilimoria | 789 cc706-7 (Link to this contribution)

If I may, I shall just reference the former Attorney-General, Dominic Grieve, who wrote recently:...

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 789 c707 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way, but does not he see how absurd the argument is th...

Lord Bilimoria | 789 c707 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth has great foresight, because I am about to cover that in my speech.<...

Baroness Manzoor | 789 c707 (Link to this contribution)

In terms of limiting the powers of Ministers, is that not within Clause 7? Forgive me if I have m...

Lord Bilimoria | 789 c708 (Link to this contribution)

With all due respect, that is the whole objective of this—the fact that one can use statutory ins...

Lord Hamilton of Epsom | 789 c708 (Link to this contribution)

Did the noble Lord think that it was the intention of Miss Gina Miller that, when the House did h...

Lord Bilimoria | 789 c708 (Link to this contribution)

I remind the noble Lord that this House, in that Article 50 Bill, had two of the largest votes in...

Lord Bilimoria | 789 cc708-9 (Link to this contribution)

I am coming to the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth—will he please have some patience? Specifically, Sect...

Lord Adonis | 789 c709 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, may I elaborate on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick and invite the Minist...

Lord Pannick | 789 c709 (Link to this contribution)

The only reason why the noble Lord is not carrying me with him is that I do not understand the pu...

Lord Judge | 789 c709 (Link to this contribution)

May I just have a few moments?

Lord Judge | 789 cc709-710 (Link to this contribution)

Well, noble Lords may not want to hear what I am going to say. I have had a sense developing over...

Lord Keen of Elie | 789 cc710-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, as may have been observed during the passage of the Investigatory Powers Bill, the Gove...

Lord Davies of Stamford | 789 c711 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for giving way. Of course, we hope that we are not ta...

Lord Keen of Elie | 789 c711 (Link to this contribution)

That is why Clause 7 is drafted in the terms in which the noble Lord will find it in the Bill.

Lord Adonis | 789 c711 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, he pointed out that Schedule 3 is not the key—

Lord Keen of Elie | 789 c712 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, we must make progress at this stage, if the noble Lord does not mind. We have to keep m...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 789 cc712-3 (Link to this contribution)

I thank all noble Lords who have spoken. I know the Committee will not believe this but the three...

Lord Faulks | 789 c713 (Link to this contribution)

I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way. I perhaps ought to clarify that I was re...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 789 c713 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the noble Lord. I apologise for misunderstanding that point.

I am afraid there was ...

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