My Lords, I would like to start by addressing Amendment 18. I thank the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, for the work that he does in this House as an advocate on behalf of the creative industries. Aided by his background as an artist and a writer, he provides a voice in the House for a community that contributes an awful lot to our cultural fabric.
I believe that auctioneers and traders have an important role to play in providing information about the history and background of the items that they sell. That allows the UK’s lawful—I hope—and vibrant marketplace for arts and antiquities to flourish and grow, as many have said.
I have some concerns about the amendment that the noble Earl has tabled with support from the noble Baronesses, Lady Bonham-Carter and Lady Northover, the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, and my noble friend Lord Renfrew. Perhaps I can explain why.
First, I continue to believe that it is appropriate to allow the art and antiquities trade to regulate itself. The established trade associations possess codes of
ethics by which they expect their members to abide, and we expect the associations to strictly enforce those codes. The codes require that members undertake not to purchase, sell or offer any item of property that they know has been stolen, illegally exported or illegally excavated. Furthermore, we believe that the Dealing in Cultural Objects (Offences) Act 2003, along with the new offence that we are creating, provide a sufficient incentive for legitimate dealers to ensure that they do their due diligence and pass on relevant information concerning the provenance of an object.
The lack of prosecutions—although there has been one—does not mean that the Act has had no effect. It has had a successful deterrent effect, as was rightly noted by my noble friend Lord Inglewood.
I am determined to minimise costly bureaucracy for businesses unless there is a strong case for it being necessary. To my mind, this amendment would be disproportionate, considering that there are, and have been since 1956, very few occupied territories around the world. Thus the number of objects unlawfully exported from such territories is likely to be very low. Given the extremely limited scope of cultural objects that would be classed as unlawfully exported from occupied territory, a measure requiring the provision of detailed information with regard specifically to whether any item of cultural property for sale in the UK has been unlawfully exported from an occupied territory would not be proportionate. To have a statutory passport for items, as some have said, seems like a big burden. It could also, of course, further disadvantage London as a centre for the art and antiquities trade—that would be a perverse effect.
Secondly, I would like to touch on the human rights issue, which has not been given particular prominence. We are concerned that this amendment would infringe Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights because the collection and retention of the names and addresses of all previous owners would interfere with the right to respect for private and family life, home and correspondence. That cannot, in our opinion, be justified as necessary for achieving the aim of protecting cultural objects.
I turn finally to one of the amendment’s more specific points, which was obliquely referred to by my noble friend Lord Flight, who joined the debate. Monetary value is not an appropriate way of determining whether an object should be covered or not. Such objects may have a significant historical or emotional value for the communities from which they were removed, but not necessarily a high monetary value. That deals with our reservations about Amendment 18.
6 pm
In his introduction to Amendment 17, the noble Lord, Lord Collins, made a point with a broader sweep. I will respond to the general point and then explain our comments on Amendment 17. On the bigger picture, as noble Lords know, we are working with international partners to prevent the illegal trading of Iraqi and Syrian antiquities—including in the UK —through the implementation of UN and EU sanctions. Our strategy is to prevent the illegal importation of such antiquities through UK customs and border
controls. Border Force officers, supported by HMRC intelligence officers and investigators, enforce the sanctions legislation which is in place.
The noble Lord mentioned ivory, for example. The UK has played a leading role in galvanising international action to combat the illegal wildlife trade and is supportive of wider strategies to preserve current elephant populations and combat the illegal trade in ivory. Actually, you see more and more of the effort on ivory around the world. I was in Atlanta Airport, on my way to Mexico, and there were the results of the enforcement effort that is now going into getting rid of contraband and inappropriate ivory trade.
The noble Lord also said that enforcement is key, and my noble friend Lord Inglewood picked up this theme with, I thought, an expert and interesting contribution to our debate. I agree we must have good enforcement and I agree with my noble friend that it is important to go to the police. As I am responding to him, I might say that I did anticipate his concern— I apologise, but I had been given advance notice of it—on mens rea. I will not add to the comments that I have already made, but I look forward to discussing that issue with him before Report.
The noble Lord, Lord Collins, referred to funding streams from unlawful cultural property, which others touched on as well. I said at Second Reading that while a limited amount of funding for Daesh does come from unlawful cultural property—and, obviously, that is a concern—this is dwarfed by other funding sources. The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, referred rightly to people trafficking and to oil, and there is obviously internal taxation as well. Of course, we must do what we can to reduce this further, and I believe this Bill will help to strengthen the legal framework in respect of Syria.
Of course, this legislation is also complementary. We are implementing the convention, but we already have an existing legal framework to tackle unlawful dealing in cultural objects. As I have mentioned, that includes the Dealing in Cultural Objects (Offences) Act 2003, as well as the relevant Syria and Iraq sanctions orders. The Dealing in Cultural Objects (Offences) Act makes it a criminal offence to deal dishonestly in “tainted cultural objects”, knowing or believing they are tainted, from anywhere in the world—and I am glad to be able to say that on the record. Where the 2003 Act does not apply, offences of theft or handling stolen goods under the Theft Act may apply.
The noble Baroness, Lady Bonham-Carter, talked about the importance of resourcing this enforcement effort. You cannot always do everything but, as she knows, I am passionate about enforcement in all areas, because it is often better value than new legislation. Obviously, she is right that we should continue to use all the resources that we can.
I also agree that it is important to join that up; this is something that we agree on. We have looked at that in other areas, and the obvious area of join-up is with money laundering, which the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, mentioned. The Government will take decisive measures on laundering in the criminal finances Bill, which obviously has not yet been published. My officials have already been in touch with the Treasury, and they agree that money laundering should be dealt with in
that Bill rather than piecemeal across sectors. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, said, cultural aspects of money laundering may well come up when we get to discuss that Bill.
The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, asked about police resourcing, on which I shall write to noble Lords. However, to answer her question, the UK police resourcing does not derive from the ODA.
Turning to Amendment 17, I think it is important to explain a little bit about what it does—these amendments have been put down in good faith, so that we understand the impact of the Bill. The amendment would provide that dealers must assume that cultural property originating from war zones or areas of conflict,
“has been unlawfully exported and take all necessary steps accordingly”.
As I mentioned, UK dealers in art and antiquities already follow codes of practice that require them to conduct due diligence. I therefore believe it would be disproportionate to require dealers to assume that property which originates from a country that is occupied was exported unlawfully, particularly as conflicts can be transitory in nature.
The scope of the amendment is also a little unclear. There is no definition of what would constitute a “war zone” or “area of conflict”, making the amendment potentially exceptionally broad and beyond the scope of the Hague convention and its protocols. Applying these rules to cultural property from any conflict zone could be confusing and seriously restrict the legitimate trade in cultural objects. The impact on the art and antiquities industry could be high, which I know is not what is intended. The amendment also requires that, having made the assumption of unlawful export, dealers take “all necessary steps accordingly”, but it is not clear what these steps might be. The Government cannot accept an amendment that places such an unclear and potentially heavy burden on the UK’s art market.
Finally, I should mention Amendment 21, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Collins, which relates to reimportation. I might just say that the term “imported” is already considered to include “reimported”, so unlawfully exported cultural property from an occupied territory which was already in the United Kingdom and then sent abroad—for example, on loan for an exhibition overseas—will already be covered by this Bill if it returns to the UK after this clause comes into force.
I have spoken at length. It has been an important debate, and I have tried to give some reassurance and explain the intention of some of these amendments, which I think were exploratory in nature to some extent. I ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.