My Lords, I am grateful for this interesting debate and for the amendments that have been laid. I should perhaps start by responding to the broader point that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, made and which my noble friend Lord Renfrew and the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, endorsed about the idea of a third protocol. I venture to say that in discussing the possibility of a third protocol, we are getting a bit ahead of ourselves. I think that we had all-party support for concentrating and pushing through rapidly a Bill so that, at last, the United Kingdom could ratify the existing convention and the existing protocols. This would make us the only permanent member of the UN Security Council to have ratified the convention and both protocols, and that would put us in a strong position as regards the protection of cultural property in the event of armed conflict, particularly when you look at other provisions that I will come on to mention. It also will allow us to attend meetings of state parties where we can discuss issues relating to the implementation and operation of the convention and the protocols. But I do not think it is the day to agree to a major new initiative for a third protocol.
I do think I should say something, however, about the application of the law to Syria, which is an important issue that is underlying this idea. I was clear at Second
Reading that the UK does not recognise Daesh as a state and so the Bill’s application to Syria and other civil wars is limited. The dealing offence in Clause 17 does not apply to Syria because it only covers unlawfully exported cultural property from occupied territories, as we have all said.
Under international law, territory could be occupied only by another state. As, rightly, we do not recognise Daesh as a state, Syria cannot be classed as occupied territory. However, as my noble friend Lady Berridge said, this does not represent a serious gap in our provisions because sanctions already exist for cultural property removed from Syria since March 2011, and dealing in cultural property exported from Syria is prohibited under UK law.
A UK national fighting with Daesh in Syria can be prosecuted under our Bill in relation to,
“theft, pillage or misappropriation of, and any acts of vandalism directed against, cultural property”,
protected under the convention. To expand or extend this application would, of course, be a serious over- implementation of the convention in UK legislation. That, of course, is not the purpose of the Bill.
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The noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, asked about the cultural protection fund. We have published a statement on that fund, as I am sure that he knows. It opened for applications on 27 June—so it has just opened—and one of three priority areas is cultural heritage protection. Organisations can apply to the fund to carry out projects, including those that digitalise cultural heritage. Noble Lords have already noted that the British Museum is involved in a very impressive £3 million project, which I hope that we will learn a lot from.
On the third protocol idea, I should add that no other state party has called for it. These are international matters—it is not just the UK; other countries are involved.
Perhaps I can comment on the amendment, ahead of Report. Article 19 of the convention would apply only in event of,
“an armed conflict not of an international character occurring within the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties”.
The article does not impose a one-off obligation—it is an ongoing commitment—and there may not be anything to report on if the report is to be published within one year of the passing of this Act. In the event that the UK was party to a conflict,
“not of an international character occurring within the territory”,
of one of the state parties, the UK would be bound as a minimum by the obligations set out in the convention which relate to respect for cultural property.
The main obligation under Article 19 is to respect cultural property, which would mean that, during a non-international armed conflict, our Armed Forces would have to seek to avoid exposing cultural property to damage or destruction during the conflict. Our Armed Forces would also be obliged to prevent theft, pillage and vandalism of cultural property. The practice of our Armed Forces is already to take a rigorous approach to protect cultural property in this way during the course of a non-international armed conflict, and ratifying the convention will not impose additional obligations.
On reporting in general, as I have already said in relation to another amendment, the convention requires that state parties report at least every four years to the director-general of UNESCO with,
“whatever information they think suitable concerning any measures being taken, prepared or contemplated by their respective administrations in fulfilment of the present Convention and of the Regulations for its execution”.
This is, of course, public information. It is right to report every four years; it provides up-to-date information about the implementation and operation of the convention, regulations and protocols in our country. I do not think that annual reports would add much to the four-yearly reporting cycle under the protocol. Obviously, in some years there will not be anything to report.
I hear what noble Lords say about wishing to have good information on this and to build up momentum for change internationally, but I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment so that we can focus on the Bill and making progress today.