My Lords, in listening to this debate, a few things have become clearer to me. One is how important it is that the Government have been so successful in securing employment for so many of our people. In the debate that the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, had and the noble Baroness, Lady Stroud, spoke to, both agreed that getting work is the most important way out of poverty. I pay tribute to the Government again for being so successful in that.
The Minister opened by saying that we are in an atmosphere of austerity and may need to make some tough choices. But it seemed to me that the language changed later on, to say that this is not just about austerity but is the right thing to be doing. I challenge that sincerely. It does not seem at all right to put these burdens on people. Just think: at the moment there is a storm in the north of England—Storm Desmond—flooding many families’ homes. A family in poverty, who may be working but on a very low income, may think to themselves, “We won’t take out insurance on this, that and the other, and we will hope for the best. We hope that there won’t be a storm”. Then this storm comes along and they have not insured their home, and they are already borrowing money anyway for various things because that is the only way that they can afford them, so they already have that debt and now they have lost more. The point I am making is that we are dealing here with some of the more vulnerable families in our society, and we are reducing their resilience.
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Every family is challenged, maybe by bereavement, ill health or a flood, and we are challenging them further by taking money out of their pockets by doing this. I challenge the Government to think more about this. I encourage their Back-Benchers particularly to do so; I hope that, having listened to what has been said today, they might go away with some concerns that they want to sleep on, think about and take up with the Minister, because whatever they say will be particularly important and, I am sure, helpful. Maybe I am mistaken in my concerns, though, and maybe they will wish to put the other position.
I will give another example. I have spoken with homeless parents in the past. Barnardo’s used to run a project called Families in Temporary Accommodation. Something that came out of speaking with the mothers there was the importance for them of contact with others—being able to visit their family, friends and community. One of the issues of living in temporary accommodation is that when one is shunted around the place, one loses contact with all those human connections. Things such as bus fares are important, for instance, as is being able to use a mobile phone and having the money to pay for it. Again, if you impoverish these families and take money out of their pockets, where are they going to find the money to pay bus fares, which seems very basic, to go to see their friends and families, and for their children to see their friends and so on?
To my mind, this is a very harsh way of treating some of our poorest, often working families. I very much regret that the Government are taking this step. I hope that we can reduce the harm in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, referred to. Having listened to this debate with its very well-informed contributions, though, I feel more concerned than I did when it began.