My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, the noble Lords, Lord Paddick and Lord Norton, and particularly my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe on the Front Bench. He saw some merit in what I said. This illustrates the virtue of the Committee process. The dialectic helps us all to learn. My noble friend Lady Meacher was right to say that information is at the very least as important as legislation, because we have all this evidence that prohibition has not worked. In that case, it is much better that people should be helped to understand what they do.
The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, was concerned that my recommendation of a network of testing centres would lay impossible demands on the existing resources of laboratories and forensic facilities. Of course, he is right: with our existing resources we could not possibly construct such a network that would be accessible in all regions of the country. My proposition is that we should aim to achieve that. We know that this legislation will in any case require an expansion of forensic facilities. It seems to me that you can achieve both purposes simultaneously: to enable those whose responsibility it is to enforce the law to have speedy
access to the information they need, but to also assist vulnerable consumers. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Norton, for his endorsement of the value and importance of providing reliable, trustworthy and up-to-date information to all concerned.
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I am most grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Chisholm, for the kind words that she spoke. She had absolutely no reason to apologise to me. I particularly appreciated the kind words, however, that she spoke about her noble friend the Minister. Every member of the Committee greatly appreciates the thoroughness and care with which he—and add my thanks to the officials—seeks to assist the Committee in our inquiries and in our concerns. The noble Baroness did not answer my question about whether there would be a de minimis threshold—such a low level of psychoactivity that in practice people would be advised that they do not need to concern themselves about it, whatever the technical letter of the law might say. I think that is quite an important practical consideration. Perhaps in due course we could have a response on that.
I was encouraged, of course, to hear how the Government are working closely with a whole range of agencies. I recognise that they have to work with devolved institutions across the UK as a whole, and also that the guidance that the DPP issues needs to be independent of government. All those points I take. I was a little confused—my fault, no doubt—by what she had to say about guidance to consumers. She rather deprecated the provision of guidance to consumers; on the other hand, a little later on, she became quite lyrical about Talk to FRANK, and explained what a marvellous thing it had been and what large numbers of people it had helped. So I am left a little uncertain about the Government’s view on that particular point.
The noble Baroness raised a very serious objection to my amendment in that establishing a network of testing centres might be seen as sending the signal that the Government approve of the taking of drugs. I do not think it would. It is a very sad and worrying reality, but the reality is that people are going to use these substances. The task then is to recognise that and see how we can best protect them. I also acknowledge the valid point she made that provision in Holland is in the context of a rather different regime. But perhaps she will go on a fact-finding mission to Holland and she will investigate the testing centres and form her own view as to whether they are a good thing or not and whether we ought to do something similar—