My Lords, we have had a very good, short debate on this, with a lot of contributions that in many ways highlight the difficulties that there are in this area when it comes to reaching any common ground as to what the position should be. I am grateful for the two amendments which have been introduced calling for a sunset clause on Chapters 1 and 2, and will outline the Government’s position on this. As was touched on before, it cannot of course be about whether this is a matter of principle, because clearly it is something that the Government have looked at in respect of other chapters of the Bill.
I will give the Committee the reasons why we have come to the position that we have on these particular amendments. The problem that we are seeking to address with these powers is not of a short-term nature—a point very well made by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile. We do not know how long it is going to be there for or how the threat that we are facing might mutate into different fields and theatres. From that point of view, we felt that having a set date and time on which those powers fall would send the wrong signal. I will come back to the reasons for that. Terrorism-related travel is a serious and ongoing issue, and we can expect the threat posed by British citizens returning from fighting alongside terrorist groups abroad to be present for many years to come. It is important that our law enforcement agencies are equipped to protect the British public from individuals who pose a risk.
Amendment 2 seeks to introduce a sunset clause to the temporary passport provisions. It would ensure that the power would be repealed in two years’ time, unless both Houses pass a resolution that it should continue. The precautions we have established should ensure that the temporary passport seizure power will be used in a fair, reasonable and lawful manner. They are aimed at striking the right balance between our civil liberties—which the right reverend Prelate was absolutely right to focus on—and our right to safety and security, which a number of noble Lords, including my noble friend Lady Buscombe, referred to. The House of Commons considered these factors very carefully, as your Lordships have, and it came to an overwhelming view that it did not feel that a sunset clause was necessary in relation to Chapter 1.
Amendment 55 would introduce a sunset provision to the temporary exclusion power in Chapter 2 of Part 1. Your Lordships will be aware that the Government have tabled amendments to introduce strong judicial oversight of the use of this power. The courts will have a number of opportunities to review whether each temporary exclusion order is imposed appropriately and to ensure that the power is used proportionately against individuals suspected of terrorism. In the light of these strong safeguards on the use of both the temporary passport seizure power and the temporary exclusion power, the Government do not think that it is necessary to bring the power to an end after two years. Indeed, introducing sunset clauses to these powers in two years might, as my noble friend Lord Carlile said, inadvertently send the wrong message to would-be jihadist travellers by suggesting that we lack the intent to deal with the threat that they pose to us.
There are two points here. I reflect on the views and the great experience that my noble friend Lady Warsi has in this area through her excellent work in office. She led for the Government on this, and therefore I listened very carefully to what she said about civil liberties, but there are two sides to this. There is of course the side that deals with the ability of people to travel, and the disruption of travel, which effectively is what we are talking about here. Measures are available under the royal prerogative, under which a passport is not seized but can actually be cancelled, are available, and there is no sunset clause and no basis of appeal for these measures. Under the Terrorism
Act 2000, too, there are powers to disrupt and deal with passports. Again, they are not subject to a sunset clause.
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I am trying to say to your Lordships that it is not entirely clear what the consistent position is. It is looked at across a range of matters on a case-by-case basis. Your Lordships will also be aware of the Constitution Committee, by which Ministers are often brought to book in your Lordships’ House for their work—as I know from its work on European matters, to which I have had to respond. Your Lordships should also be aware that the Constitution Committee, which always takes considerable interest in such matters, did not recommend the inclusion of a sunset clause following its consideration of the Bill. I am as ever grateful to my noble friend Lord Lang and his committee for their scrutiny of the Bill and their recent report.
For the reasons I have given, I therefore hope that noble Lords feel reassured that this is not something on which we are saying, “No, never”. As has been said, we have an independent reviewer of all terrorist legislation, and that includes this Bill and the provisions of temporary passport seizure and the temporary exclusion orders about which we are talking. They can be reviewed, not on an annual or biannual basis, but whenever the independent reviewer chooses to focus upon them—and obviously the Government will listen very carefully to his advice.
The situation at present is too fluid for us to put in an arbitrary time limit. People have genuinely focused on that. Between now and Report I am certainly prepared to reflect on the arguments that have been put forward in the debate. If we return to them, I will perhaps be able to offer to the House further views, having reflected carefully on what has been said this afternoon. In the mean time, I hope that the noble Lord might feel able to withdraw his amendment.