I thank the Minister for her response and all those who have participated in this debate. To address some of the points that were made, it certainly is not our intention to put off
smaller companies in any way. I am always puzzled by how we think that training and apprenticeships are to take place: is it always the responsibility of some other company? My experience tells me that, when you finally succeed in encouraging the smaller and medium-sized enterprises to employ and recruit apprentices, the feedback is very positive indeed, on both sides. The deterrent is usually that those enterprises have not done them previously or that they are worried about the administration costs et cetera. We are fully aware of that. If we are trying to create a climate in which we increase the number of companies participating, we have to start somewhere. Is this amendment an unreasonable proposition? We do not believe that it is, which is why I quoted the example of Crossrail; I could have quoted the Olympic model as well, which was another success story. There were no legal barriers in those examples.
The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, said that his experience was that young people are put off apprenticeships because they see them as time-based qualifications. I am puzzled if they are put off. The example I usually give—I will give it again—is of BT. I forget what the current figure is, but it is probably about 500 apprenticeships and 25,000 applications. I do not think that that sounds like young people being put off because they see it as a time-based qualification. Anyway, apprenticeships these days are not as long as the seven-year type of thing that they used to be; they are shorter and more honed. They have a lot of attraction for young people, who look down the more conventional academic route and see the costs of that against the ability not only to earn while they learn but to impress their employer with their enthusiasm and capability. We know that the demand is there on both sides. We need more people to go into industries such as manufacturing, construction and science.
I do not believe that anything we are suggesting would increase the amount of red tape. How it is done is important. It should accompany what the Government are doing; we see it as an intrinsic part of developing better participation. Of course, we need to see what the track record is. Surely we should be able to ask ourselves why some local employment partnerships and local authorities are so much better than others at encouraging the creation and development of apprenticeships. We will be able to do that only by collecting some statistics. I do not see that as a huge burden going back to small businesses. After all, some of this information is being collected anyway. Therefore, I really was not convinced by the ministerial response to that.
As we are currently in Grand Committee, I will withdraw the amendment but with a view to possibly returning to this issue at some stage. I thank the Minister for her response and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.