If we consider this in terms of the time given to the “fors” and the “againsts”, as I have already said, it is about 11 to one, and it is going to be about 11 to two. I intend to make the points that I intended to make before this debate started.
First, I declare my interest. I am an associate member of the Lords and Commons Pipe and Cigar Smokers’ Club. I am an associate member because I do not smoke, but I believe that users of a legal product should be allowed to enjoy it without continuous harassment by government and an army of lobbyists such as ASH, which is subsidised, and the BMA. Smokers, unfortunately, are treated as social lepers, although let us not forget that they contribute some £10.5 billion per annum to the Treasury. If they are such lepers, perhaps we should not accept their money.
In my view, the amendment of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, is perhaps one of the most extreme Henry VIII pieces of legislation that I have ever seen, and I am sorry to see that it is in his name. I want to take the House back in history to 4 February 2009. Let us hear what the noble Earl said then, when we were discussing the ban on tobacco displays:
“The Bill’s proposals to outlaw point-of-sale displays of tobacco products are unjustified and repressive. The evidence to back them up is flimsy, and the data has been hyped. In 2002, when tobacco advertising was banned, the Government said that they had no plans to interfere with the right of retailers to display a perfectly legal product in shops. We must be absolutely sure of our ground before removing that right”.—[Official Report, 4/2/09; col. 749.]
I believe that the noble Earl was right then and is wrong today because he is going further than the previous Government dared to do. Not only have we banned the display of cigarette packets and what have you but now plain packaging will be banned as well, and that seems quite an absurdity.
The new clause proposed in Amendment 57B is so detailed as to be almost incomprehensible. The Government are now proposing to intervene in the nooks and crannies of design and, indeed, even in the fabric of cigarette and other tobacco packets. There are 19 ways in which the Government are going to intervene and tell the tobacco manufacturers how they can display their products. That, I believe, is going much too far. In passing, I suppose that I ought to note that the display legislation is not yet fully operative—small retailers will not be banned from displaying these products until 2015. So here we are, before the
ban even comes into force, going even further than the previous Government did, which at the time the noble Earl, Lord Howe, opposed.
We have heard a lot in the past few days about cutting regulation but the Government are also increasing regulation, of which this amendment is the nastiest example. I do not have time to go into the complete detail, although I should go through the whole amendment but I will not.
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Whether these measures will discourage young people from taking up smoking is doubtful. Youngsters take up smoking for a whole range of reasons, not just because of the packaging. There is no real evidence that plain packaging will prevent youngsters starting to smoke. There has been no proper consultation about it. Indeed, we were informed by the noble Earl that there will not be any consultation on this matter. This proposal will set a precedent for other products, such as alcohol, sweets and products containing sugar, and fatty foods that are causing an obesity crisis which is costing the health service even more than smoking. I certainly oppose the government amendment.
As I pointed out earlier, I am surprised that smoking in private vehicles is being discussed with plain packaging. It is a completely different issue which should be discussed separately. We are saying that children will be at risk from second-hand smoke but surely noble Lords realise that a car must have air input and output. PN10s from diesel and petrol fumes pass through cars. Therefore, children in cars ingest dangerous fumes even where there is no smoking. What are we going to do? Are we going to ban cars from the road? It really is quite ridiculous.
Furthermore, it will be very difficult to enforce this type of legislation. We are not yet able properly to enforce not using mobile phones in moving vehicles. Anyone who travels along a motorway knows perfectly well that practically every lorry driver is using a mobile phone, yet we know that very few of them are prosecuted, let alone fined, for doing so. Enforcement will be extremely difficult.
What will be the next step? People against smoking will not stop at smoking in cars. They will want to stop smoking in homes where there are children. Noble Lords will say that that will not happen but there have already been proposals to do that. That would be an amazing interference in people’s lives. I am against the extension of bans on smoking. Let me add that I was born in south Wales in the Rhondda Valley, in a small three-bedroom terraced house. My sister and I lived with our parents and grandparents. My step-grandfather, grandmother, mother and father smoked. I have to say that it has not done me very much damage. In May, I shall be 88 years of age.
People may well think that I have gone on too long. However, what has certainly not done me any damage was the fact that the whole of my family smoked, as indeed did most people in the Rhondda, because that was the only thing that could relieve the awfulness of the slums and unemployment that they were suffering at that time. I am sorry that these amendments have been tabled. I know that if there is a vote we shall be very heavily outvoted, but we shall see .