My Lords, I thank the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries of Pentregarth, for the excellent report of his commission, which has performed a service to the whole House and to everybody involved in the debate throughout the country.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, for tabling his Motion today. It has performed an extremely useful purpose in concentrating minds, particularly within the Government. I would never say that the Government have been running around like headless chickens, but there has been a great deal of activity over the weekend and into today, to try to find a compromise which will do what a lot of us want. This is no excuse; anybody who heard my speech at Second Reading will know that my views on Part 2 of the Bill are not terribly complimentary.
The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, referred to serious damage to the relationship between the Government and civil society as a whole. We have an extraordinary position in which on the one hand the Government are saying that black is black and, on
the other, pretty well the whole of civil society is saying, “No, it is not. It is actually white”. Who is right in this instance? A great deal of scrutiny and investigation is required. The question is whether it needs a special Select Committee or whether it can be done through the normal processes of this House, augmented by enhanced consultation by the Government with all corners of the House, with everybody outside and with the whole of civil society in the mean time. Is five weeks long enough? Ideally, we would have longer, but we can do the job in five weeks.
We are often told that the purpose of this House, particularly in Committee and on Report, is to scrutinise legislation and revise it. Will my noble friend Lord Wallace give an absolute assurance that, as this scrutiny takes place with the groups in this Chamber and as there is further discussion and negotiation with outside bodies, the Government will be serious and honest—and will not, when we come to Committee, take the typical attitude of all Governments to Bills, which is to defend the status quo and the wording on their Bill, then give way when they are really forced to? As far as Part 2 is concerned, are the Government really going into this with an open mind? It is not just a matter of reassuring the third sector or civil society that the words in the Bill will not harm them, but of taking seriously their view that the Bill will harm them and of looking at ways of changing the Bill so that not only will it not harm them but civil society generally will accepts and be confident that it will not. Are the Government open to change in a serious way on Part 2? That is the fundamental question that we have today. If my noble friend can guarantee me that that is the open-minded approach that the Government are going to take in Committee and on Report, we can be justified in going ahead with the revised schedule, taking Part 2 later on and going to Report in January.
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The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, suggested that there was not enough time to write amendments. I am sure that that is not the case, but the important time for amendments is of course Report. If the amendments are going to be serious and are going to stick, and not be overturned when they go down to the House of Commons, they will have to have general consensus in this House—and that means general consensus by the Government, even if there is otherwise a majority in this House for what might be proposed.
That is the task before us. It requires a change of approach to the Bill, to some extent, on behalf of the whole of the Government, including parts of the Government that are not represented in this House—in higher places, perhaps—and an acceptance that Part 2 is not right yet but can be made right. I believe that the normal processes of this House, worked properly and well, can achieve that. I hope that I am right. I am very pleased that these discussions took place today and that the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, is seriously thinking of not pressing his Motion to a vote. If it does go to a vote, I will unfortunately not be able to support it. We have a compromise now and, in the best traditions of this House when negotiations take place around the House between the Government and parts of the House and a compromise is reached, we should accept it and go ahead on that basis.