My Lords, I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. There have been some important and powerful speeches tonight, as there have been at all stages of the passage of this Bill. I will do my best to respond to most of the points that have been raised but will try not to take too much time, so forgive me if I do not go into great detail.
First, in response to the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, I will just clarify something that I said which he picked up on. The Government are not suggesting that we should replace the word “caste” with the word “descent”. That is not something that we are proposing; I raised it purely to highlight that it that had been raised by others in the course of this debate.
Several views have been expressed in the Chamber this evening. The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, questioned a comment I made that some people do not want to be defined by caste. He argued that that should not lead to a decision that we should not recognise caste in law in order to protect against discrimination. I will make a couple of points in response to that. First, over the past couple of weeks in the discussions that the Government have had with different bodies, it has been made very clear to me while attending those meetings that some people do not want to be defined by caste and are worried that caste legislation would allow that. In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, the person who made that point most forcefully to me was a woman from the Hindu community.
It was interesting and illustrative that the noble Lord, Lord Singh, made the point that caste is absolutely not a feature at all in the Sikh religion. The noble
Lord, Lord Parekh, said that caste is something that can be recognised across a wide range of different faiths. Indeed, the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, talked about this being something that can be found in the Christian faith. There are clearly, just in the debate that we have had this evening, several views being expressed in this regard.
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That leads me on to the point about consultation and the need, in our view, for this consultation to take place before we decide what action is necessary. The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, and the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, suggested that it might be possible to decide and then consult afterwards. I think, by definition, that if we were to do that, we would narrow the terms of the consultation. Some of the issues that have been raised by noble Lords this evening would not be given the opportunity to be properly considered and reflected upon.
I would also make another important point about the consultation that picks up on a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, about who the Government are listening to on this matter. Our consultation proposals are not simply intended as a platform for community leaders, they also reflect the fact that there has never been a public consultation on this important and emotive issue. So far, the debate both for and against legislation has been led by a very small number of individuals and groups. What we want to do is to give the very people who the noble Baroness talked about the opportunity to make their views and their voices heard.
I should respond to a couple of specific points. The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, and others suggested that by putting forward their proposal to consult after deciding to legislate, this should reflect on whether employers should consider caste in terms of their work. Somebody made the point that actually, as for any kind of characteristic, caste is not something that one is legally required to disclose. However, it would seem odd to decide to legislate and then consult or issue guidance on whether an employer should be asking somebody to disclose their caste. This is just another illustration of the complexity.
To clarify the remarks that my honourable friend in the other place made about employment law remedies already existing, what the Minister meant was that people can bring claims for constructive dismissal or unfair dismissal, but the claim of caste cannot be successfully brought. I think that that is a point of clarification.
Let me be clear about the Government’s position. We accept that the NIESR report identified some, albeit limited, evidence that caste discrimination has occurred in this country. We are committed to taking action to support those affected by it. We are not against such action including legislation, but at this time we do not have all the information that we believe is necessary to reach a decision on whether legislation is the right action.
My noble friend Lord Deben made a very strong and powerful speech, as is his custom, and made it clear to me what kind of reassurance he is looking for
this evening from the Minister speaking on behalf of the Government. I would like to say to him and to other noble Lords, particularly those who are in favour of the amendment, that I recognise the scepticism that has been expressed by them and their concern as to whether the Government will act. I see that this issue has been around for a certain length of time and I agree with the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, that it is because the Government have listened very hard to the points that have been made by noble Lords in this House that we have actually taken additional steps since this was first raised in the context of the ERR Bill at the end of last year. So this House has had real influence.
We have reconsidered what additional work is necessary so that we can reach a decision. The Government have committed themselves to carrying out a full public consultation. I have made clear—and am happy to do so again—that we will make the findings of the consultation available to the Equality and Human Rights Commission before it reaches its own conclusions and makes recommendations to the Government. I have said today that if the commission makes a firm recommendation to legislate, that recommendation would be a key element informing the Government’s decision. I cannot go any further than that, as my noble friend Lord Deben has said, but I very much take on board that by making that clear and asking noble Lords to accept my reassurance, and the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, to withdraw his amendment, I am asking the House to have great confidence and faith in what I am saying.
This issue is incredibly important. My noble friend Lord Deben queried a point that I made in my opening remarks, about what he called the cost argument. I think he is right: there are bound to be some issues to do with cost and I am not saying that the Government should not be aware of them. That is not important. What is important is recognising that this problem is real, that there needs to be action to address it and that the Government are prepared to act, but we need to ensure that we do this in the right way and that we consider all the issues before we act, not afterwards. For that reason, I hope very much that the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, is able to withdraw his amendment and the House accepts the Motion that the Government have put forward.