My Lords, with due respect to the Minister, it might have been better had a Defra Minister replied to the debate, because some of the information that he has just given is not accurate—for example, on tied cottages and the provisions for migrant workers. The requirements under the agricultural wages order and related matters were set by the board. They are enforced by the gangmasters authority these days if they involve gangmaster labour. I think that the noble Lord needs to get back to Defra to clarify some of those things.
However, let us to the main point. The noble Lord, Lord Deben, said that he thought that I was pushing the traditions of the House. One of the problems with this is that Ministers collectively have ignored what the House clearly decided in debate on the Public Bodies Bill only in relation to this quango. Whether we agree with its abolition or not, the Government have ignored what was clearly laid down two years ago after, as I said, bitter debate in this House and have not provided the House with adequate information or time to discuss this issue, as they have on all other quangos that they are abolishing, or else there has been a bit of new primary legislation.
That is why there is such a hoo-hah about the assessment; it is not good enough. The Minister has said that he does not agree with it. The assessment itself says that the estimate it contains was the best estimate, not, as the noble Lord, Lord Curry, and the Minister have said, the worst estimate. If we accept that Ministers have signed off on an impact assessment—this was all signed by the Minister—Ministers cannot then come to the House and say that they do not believe a word of it.
We have to start from that point. If the Government had gone through the normal procedure, we would have had a detailed Explanatory Memorandum and it would have gone through the enhanced scrutiny procedure under Section 11 of the Public Bodies Act. Instead, they have tried to cut corners. That is the problem.
That is why I do not apologise for raising the issue again. Yes, we are going over some old ground, but we are also hearing some of the old arguments. Under that procedure, what my noble friend Lady Donaghy has asked for—namely, a monitoring process so that when abolition occurs we can see what actually happens to agricultural wages—is required for other bodies that are being abolished, but it is not required here.
I find it difficult to understand those who argue that after this body disappears, nothing will happen to wages and no one will notice, as the noble Lord, Lord Deben, says. The noble Lord, Lord Curry, says that
wages will probably increase. However, the only document that we have had says that although some people’s wages will go up, on average and on aggregate they will fall. That is why we need a better assessment.
This is a very minimal requirement. If we had gone down the route that the House agreed, the Minister would have been subject to far more detailed requirements and debates. He would have had to explain himself far more convincingly than he has today. All I am asking is that before we implement this measure, we get a document from the Government that does what they are required to do for every other body apart from the one that protects some rural workers.
That does not seem to be a position that the House of Lords ought to be taking in the 21st century, and it may be seen that way. Although the noble Lord, Lord Deben, says that no one will notice, there are some people who will. The noble Lord obviously has conversations with the grain barons of East Anglia and maybe they would not notice, but a lot of small farmers have objected to the abolition—in the West Country, the north and Wales—saying that this was a bigger problem. They will notice because they will have to engage in rather difficult negotiations with their one or two staff.
The people who will really notice, though, will be those who are employed relatively casually and seasonally by the element of the agricultural sector that is really pushing for this change—that is, horticulture. The people who will notice are probably not so much those who are paid above the minimum rate but those who are on the lowest wages, at the minimum rate or even below it. Those at the bottom end of the agricultural labour market are going to notice. If the Minister persists in resisting this today, we will not even be able to assess properly whether I or the Government were right. That does not seem to be a sensible position to adopt in the tradition of this House.
Although it is late at night and I do not expect to win it, I think that I need to test the position of the House so that it is quite clear and our Commons colleagues can at least look again at the arguments, because the other way in which we are breaking with tradition is that this measure has come in on Report and the House of Commons has not even had a look at it yet. I will test the opinion of the House, for what that is worth.