My Lords, I was pleased to add my name to this amendment. I congratulate the two previous speakers who said quite a lot of what I might have said, and I will try not to repeat what they said. I agree with practically every word that both speakers said and I think we should be aware that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, is probably the greatest expert on these matters in your Lordships’ House. There are obviously others on different sides who have similar expertise.
This takes me back to the debates on the Public Bodies Bill some two years ago when I moved an amendment in Committee to remove the Agricultural Wages Board from the purview of that Bill. Noble Lords will be surprised to learn that I made a long speech on 1 December 2010, which is reported in Hansard, beginning in column 1513. I read it again just now and nothing seems to have changed, so I thought I would read it all out again. Then I looked around the House and saw at least half a dozen people whom I remember being present in that debate; it would be unfair to them to subject them to it again, although it might have done everybody else some good.
At the time, efforts were being made within what I might call coalition circles, led by my honourable friend Andrew George, who was co-chair, along with
me, of the Liberal Democrat Defra committee at the time. We were trying to save the AWB, or at least find an alternative system which would preserve some of its best features. We thought we were going to achieve some success, but we failed; I very much regret that. One reason may have been that the Defra Ministers at that time did not include any Liberal Democrats, but I do not know.
When the then Secretary of State Caroline Spelman announced that she wanted to abolish the Agricultural Workers Board, there had been no consultation whatever. There has now been a consultation, but, as the noble Lord, Lord Whitty said, it was for a mere four weeks. That breached the standard of 12 weeks which is supposed to prevail for such consultations. It was obviously part and parcel of the effort to shunt this clause into the end of this Bill, pretty well at the end of the parliamentary process. It has resulted in my appearance for the first time in this Bill at the end of the process.
Why are the Government doing this? The Government’s consultation and their report on it are thorough and very interesting. It is absolutely clear, as the right reverend Prelate said, that the people and organisations in favour of it include, in particular, the horticultural sector, with its very large number of seasonal workers. There are some very good horticultural firms, but there are also some where the conditions for the workers leave a lot to be desired. They are different from most other farms in this country. Those in favour of abolition also include the big farms, which are often prosperous, the supermarkets and the food processors. They are the people who want this and we have to ask ourselves why.
Then there are the people who do not support it, which is clear from the consultation. There are some quite harrowing comments from small and medium-sized farmers who believe that, far from it removing the regulatory burdens from farm business, as the Minister argued when he opened this debate, it will increase their administrative burdens. These are small businesses that rely very much on the help and support they get by having a firm structure and framework for employing their staff. If they have to do it all themselves, it is going to be much more difficult for them.
Two years ago, my honourable friend Mark Williams spoke in the Public Bill Committee in the House of Commons and quoted what I had said here; it is all a bit circular, but there is a good reason for this. He said:
“As we have heard, it is not totally acceptable to rest behind the national minimum wage legislation, because other concerns about terms and conditions need to be addressed. Lord Greaves said in that debate:
‘Will there be a new national system set up? Will there be a bargaining system set up within the industry—an unofficial system…outside the purview of statutes and government, in which employers and representatives of agricultural workers negotiate? Or to what extent will it be left to individual farmers to negotiate with their own workers or just impose’—
the word “impose” is critical—
‘terms and conditions and wages…above the national minimum wage?’—[Official Report, House of Lords, 1 December 2010; Vol. 722, c. 1515.]
I am still looking for the elusive clarity on that matter, particularly about the issues that the hon. Lady mentioned on terms and conditions, people under 16 and so on”.—[Official Report, Commons, Public Bodies Bill Committee, 8/9/2011; col. 54.]
As far as I can see, that remains the position. The NFU has answered this to a degree by saying that it would provide support, assistance, advice and help to its members, but first, not all small and medium farmers are members of the NFU by any means. That is a problem.
Secondly, the NFU, which sounds like a trade union, is in fact the employers’ organisation in this context. It simply cannot give the sort of balanced and unbiased regulation that the AWB now provides. The AWB has an equal number of representatives from the NFU and from Unite, as well as five independent members on top. It provides a place in which negotiation can take place, but it also has to take an overall balanced view, which we would lose. The questions that Mark Williams put have not been answered; it will be interesting to hear how the Government think it will work.
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The Government are saying, “Well, it’s okay because this was in the Conservative manifesto”. It was not in the Liberal Democrat manifesto or in the coalition agreement, and on that basis, those of us who sit here as Liberal Democrats ought to be able to have the freedom to look at this issue and make up our own minds up. I will certainly vote for the amendment to the government amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, if it is put to the vote, as no doubt it will be.
I will add one further thing. I received a message from somebody local, adding to the list of objections to the abolition that came from so many farmers in the consultation. This is an issue where the NFU does not by any means speak for the whole of the farming industry. The letter was sent to me by an acquaintance of mine in Pendle, Charlie Clutterbuck. He sums up many of the problems when he states:
“On this occasion I wanted to raise the issue of the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board. And the general disappointment that the Lib Dems are going along with it. It surprises some of us and it seems a most surprising turn around”.
This is the point at which, like all my colleagues, I give people a lesson in coalition government—in trade-offs, compromises and all the rest, which I perfectly accept. There are times when an issue is not fundamental, and when we, as a party, should turn round and say no. Mr Clutterbuck continues:
“It is also odd that there are few farmers round here”—
this is upland Pennine Lancashire—
“who really want this abolition. It won’t help them with their many other problems, by adding the difficulties of employment complexities. I was Chair of the Governors at Myerscough Agricultural College, and know of nobody who thinks this move is going to bring rural prosperity to areas like ours”.
He goes on to say, in his words, not mine:
“It is clearly motivated and being pushed by the ‘Plantation owners’ in the East who hire hundreds of migrant workers and want to pay them a penny or two less an hour. ‘Rural’ won’t benefit, but ‘retailers’ will. And in smashing up the AWB, they smash up the whole skills structure, on which most permanent farm workers depend for their career. I am on the LANTRA England Council and know that ‘growing’ skills are going to be crucial in the future. Doing away with the AWB Skills scheme sends the wrong message to anybody wanting a career in farming and who doesn’t own a few hundred acres of their own land”.
I do not in any way condemn people who own land and farm it, whether they are small or big farmers. However, this particular proposal is misguided and unnecessary. It will save a minimal amount of money in the short term, and the only explanation we get is, “Well, in the long term wages will be driven up because of market conditions”. In the long term that may or may not be true, but, as John Maynard Keynes famously said, in the long run we are all dead. I am concerned about the welfare of farm workers in the short and medium term. I support this amendment.