Once again, I thank noble Lords very much for their thoughtful and moving contributions to this debate. Clearly, as PIP is being introduced as a new benefit, it is right that it is subject to a very high level of scrutiny. I shall try to address as many questions as I can. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked about case loads and the steady state, which we estimate will be around 2018. Our current estimate is that the percentage getting the top rate of both elements will rise from 16% in DLA to 23% in PIP. As I have said, the actual number goes up as well, although not by a lot, from 354,000 to 357,000. But the number of people who will get the top rate of the daily living component will go up to 674,000 compared to the 539,000 who currently receive DLA.
My noble friend Lady Thomas wanted me to clarify the meaning of “repeatedly”. Currently, it means as often as the activity being assessed is reasonably required
to be completed, which makes the point that it will not be on a daily basis necessarily but will depend on the type of activity that we are talking about. The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, referred to what might happen to the 20-metre mobility criterion in the future. Clearly, I am absolutely conscious of the strength of feeling around that criterion and I assure the House that we will keep it under very close review both within and outside the independent review process. In the mean time, we have no plans to make any further changes to this criterion.
My noble friend Lady Browning was concerned, as am I, about groups with autistic spectrum disorder. We have worked to ensure that the PIP assessment will take full and fair account of the complex needs that people with autism face. The noble Lord, Lord Touhig, was concerned about the 30-day time period. We believe that that is sufficient time for providers to conclude the process, including gathering evidence where it is needed. Clearly, this is another area that deserves close monitoring.
My noble friend Lady Thomas was interested in how the Government would monitor Atos and Capita. We have set strict recruitment and training criteria for both providers. We will approve only practitioners who reach high standards. We will have random, independently assured quality checks, which we will undertake on a regular basis. Those assessors will be well versed in our case studies and guidance as part of their training.
As regards the carers’ case load and the steady state figure, the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, was concerned that we were using an interim figure for 2015, going to the steady state in 2018. The figure is a reduction of 9,000 claims out of the total number of claims in payment to carers, which is running at around 600,000. I make that 1.5%. The noble Baroness used a rather larger percentage that I did not recognise. Her figures may be on a different basis but we can talk about that privately.
The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, was concerned about whether there was the right number of people to conduct these assessments. To one extent, by pushing out the timetable, we have taken away some of the potential overlap with the WCA reassessment bulge, but we are not using any of the same health professionals to carry out the PIP assessments, because PIP is being delivered through sub-contractors.
9 pm
I will write to the noble Lord and provide some of the numbers on the different lots. I do not have them to hand, but it is hundreds in the different lots and we expect that the face-to-face consultations will take about an hour. As the noble Lord knows, DLA recipients are exempted from the benefits cap and this will also apply to PIP. We do not have an analysis on who might be affected by not getting any benefit at all. The noble Lord asked why, given the concerns, we do not just revert to the 50 metres. We are stuck with the fact that the previous criteria did not work well. They were unclear and would have led to inconsistent outcomes. Twenty metres is not an absolute distance because of the words “repeatedly, safely, and in a timely manner”. Some individuals capable of distances over 20 metres will therefore qualify for the enhanced rate.
The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hardie, raised the issue of people not able to go to work any more. This is a point that has certainly resonated with me. We looked at the analysis of this and have not actually seen a negative impact on employment as a result of introducing PIP. We are actively exploring what extra support we can give to disabled people to ensure that they can still get to work. We are looking at whether we can use access to work as that particular vehicle. We want to ensure that mobility support remains in place during any transition between the Motability scheme and access to work. Our aim would be to ensure that individuals retain the use of their Motability vehicle until their access to work application had been processed. Active work is under way. I am grateful, as always, to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, who was quickly on to this point.
The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, asked about carer’s allowance protection. There will be protection for one month if a DLA recipient does not qualify for PIP. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked whether people losing PIP will have additional costs as a result of their disability. A primary objective of PIP is to focus our support on those who need it most. It is hard to make direct comparisons. My noble friend Lady Thomas asked about the role of JCP decision-makers. They take the final decision and they use all the available evidence, including the report from Atos or Capita. We will undertake to lay further amending regulations if findings from the independent review indicate that we need them.
The noble Lord, Lord Alton, talked about the PAC’s issues with regard to Atos Healthcare. We take a robust approach to managing the contract with Atos and believe that the application of service credits has been handled appropriately. Where Atos has been responsible for underperformance, recovery plans have been put in place and redress has been sought in the form of these service contracts. We have a challenging target in this regard in that 95% must reach the top standards but we are looking at whether we should tighten this standard further. We are puzzled by the PAC’s point about whether profits reflect the risk that is borne. An analysis was not provided of how the profit levels related to the risk levels so we are baffled as to how anyone would have reached the conclusion that the PAC did.
My noble friend Lord German referred to people with Crohn’s disease and managing toilet needs. It is important to note that the managing toilet needs activity is not the only activity under which claimants with Crohn’s or colitis could receive points. If an individual who suffers from those illnesses suffers, for instance, fatigue to the extent that he or she requires assistance to get in or out of the bath or shower, he or she would be awarded appropriate points under the washing and bathing activity.
The noble Lord, Lord Alton, spoke of the level of consultation on 20 metres. As I said, we did not specifically consult on the change to include 20 metres. However, we have consulted extremely extensively on PIP and I hope that we have been absolutely clear about it today. Indeed, the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny
Committee praised the DWP for its extensive consultation on PIP criteria. It is one of the most heavily consulted on provisions that I can recall, although others may have a better memory.
The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, asked about deafness. The assessment includes an activity on the ability to communicate verbally. That is a significant improvement on the DLA, which fails to take into account the barriers faced by the deaf and hearing impaired people. Individuals needing communications support to be able to understand basic verbal information will receive eight points, which in itself brings entitlement to the standard rate of the component. We currently have no plans for reform for the under-16s.
I turn to the final two points made by the noble Lord, Lord Alton. On legal advice, I clearly cannot refer to anything that lawyers tell me. However, we are aware of obligations under the UN convention and we believe that we comply with them. I assure him that, as regards the mobility criteria, we are looking specifically at outdoor movement—he was concerned that we were looking only at indoor movement—including how someone deals with uneven surfaces and steps, as that movement is clearly more difficult than indoor movement.
We have developed these reforms in a principled and considered fashion by seeking the views of disabled people and their organisations at every step. We have carried out four major consultations and have listened and acted on each of them. We also know that these regulations are not the end of the journey; they are the start. We will be monitoring and evaluating their operation to ensure that they are working as we intend, and to identify whether there are improvements that we need to make. Key to this are the independent reviews that noble Lords rightly insisted we build into our plans. Given all that, I urge noble Lords to support these important regulations.