My Lords, as the Minister said, I have Amendments 7, 31 and 35 in this group. I should explain that for the remainder of the discussion of the Bill on Report I am likely to be seeing it through the perspective of the Local Government Pension Scheme which, in response to the noble Lord, Lord Flight, is a funded scheme, not a pay-as-you-go scheme, and, moreover, a funded scheme that has recently reached agreement between the trade unions and the LGA, sanctioned by the CLG and the Treasury, on a new cost-management structure. I therefore think the costs of any limit on retrospection in that scheme are unlikely to arise. I probably should declare that I am an honorary vice-president of the LGA and a member of the GMB, although I have no pecuniary interest in the pensions covered by the LGPS. I was also, until recently, chair of one of its schemes.
The Minister deserves considerable credit for moving significantly on this front. It is clear that what appeared to be quite an open-ended ability to amend primary and secondary legislation in the original text of the Bill has been significantly modified by the changes which he has proposed and the procedures that he has outlined, particularly in relation to Amendment 36. It would be nice if he could go a little further, particularly in respect of two points. Amendment 7 would effectively prevent retrospective changes for non-administrative reasons that had a material detriment for any members of the scheme. The reference in Amendment 36 to “significant adverse effects” sounds like a significantly higher threshold than “material detriment”. Does the Minister think there is a real distinction there? Could some quite serious detriment in effect occur without triggering Amendment 36? I would hope not, but I would like some on-the-record reassurance on that point.
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My noble friend Lord Eatwell has already raised my second point. There is a “judge and jury” problem with Clause 36 but, in general, I welcome the clause. The procedure is sensible and the associated amendments are likely to be able to deal with the situation, if anything, slightly better than the procedural amendments that I have tabled. However, there is an issue as to whether a detriment is in the eyes of one party rather than appearing to be a detriment to any objective
observer. That could be a cause, in the long run, for a serious lack of trust in whether Clause 36 and its associated amendments really meet the point.
The Minister has gone a long way, and I congratulate him on that. I do not want to appear too narky about where we are but he could still make some improvements, some of them by giving clearer assurances today both on the point about material detriment and on the unilateral definition of “appears” which seems to arise in Clause 36. Two and a half cheers for the Minister. He could make me happier were his response to my noble friend Lord Eatwell’s points and mine to be constructive today.