UK Parliament / Open data

Northern Ireland Protocol Bill

Debate on bills and Committee of the Whole House (HC) on Tuesday, 19 July 2022, in the House of Commons, led by Michael Ellis and Lucy Frazer. The answering member was Peter Kyle.
Committee stage (second day). Clause 7, amendment 44, debated with clauses 8-11, further amendments and new clauses. Amendment 44 negatived on division (201 to 293). Clauses 7-8 agreed to. Clause 9, amendment 28, negatived on division (205 to 293). Clauses 9-11 agreed to. New clause 15 (UK-EU Joint Committee: Report to Parliament) negatived on division (204 to 292). Clause 12, amendment 37, debated with clause 17 and amendment 41, and withdrawn. Clauses 12 and 17 agreed to. Progress reported. Committee to sit again tomorrow.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
718 cc867-929 
Session
2022-23
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Northern Ireland Protocol Bill 2022-23
Monday, 13 June 2022
Bills
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Stephen Farry | 718 c868 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move amendment 44, in clause 7, page 5, line 5 insert—

“(1A) This section applies ...

Nigel Evans | 718 cc868-9 (Link to this contribution)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Clause stand part.

Amendmen...


Show all contributions (145)
Stephen Farry | 718 cc869-870 (Link to this contribution)

Earlier in the debate on this Bill, we discussed solutions on which I think it is fair to say tha...

Ian Jnr Paisley | 718 c870 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Member for tabling amendments so that the issue can be debated properly and thor...

Stephen Farry | 718 c870 (Link to this contribution)

Indeed. Unfortunately this is the outworkings of Brexit, which the hon. Member pursued. We have a...

Jim Shannon | 718 c870 (Link to this contribution)

On the programme “Countryfile” on Sunday night, a farmer from my constituency, Sam McChesney, out...

Stephen Farry | 718 cc870-1 (Link to this contribution)

I advise the hon. Gentleman to reflect on some of the things that the Ulster Farmers Union has be...

Jim Shannon | 718 c871 (Link to this contribution)

I have met the chief executive of Lakeland Dairies on a number of occasions, and I do so regularl...

Stephen Farry | 718 c871 (Link to this contribution)

We will talk about the dairy sector in much greater detail shortly. Indeed, it has given signific...

Colum Eastwood | 718 c871 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the hon. Member for giving way. Does he agree with me and with Mike Johnston, th...

Stephen Farry | 718 c871 (Link to this contribution)

Indeed, and the dairy sector in Northern Ireland is absolutely clear. The provisions in this Bill...

Sammy Wilson | 718 c871 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Member for giving way; he has been quite generous, but it is important that we s...

Stephen Farry | 718 c872 (Link to this contribution)

I strongly encourage the right hon. Gentleman to engage with the Dairy Council and listen directl...

Ian Jnr Paisley | 718 c872 (Link to this contribution)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way on that point?

Stephen Farry | 718 c872 (Link to this contribution)

Let me finish the first point and then someone else can come in.

If those inputs are not co...

Ian Jnr Paisley | 718 c872 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Member for giving way. I should just put on the record that I represent one of t...

Nigel Evans | 718 c872 (Link to this contribution)

Order. I want to establish right from the outset that interventions should be brief by their very...

Stephen Farry | 718 cc872-3 (Link to this contribution)

I will briefly respond, and then hopefully I will make some progress. What the hon. Member has sa...

Tony Lloyd | 718 c873 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Member is making a very good speech. It is not the EU that wants to change the rules; ra...

Stephen Farry | 718 c873 (Link to this contribution)

Absolutely; I concur very much with what the hon. Member says. Regulation sometimes has a negativ...

Stephen Farry | 718 cc873-4 (Link to this contribution)

If I can make some progress, clause 7 essentially introduces a dual regulatory system for regulat...

Ian Jnr Paisley | 718 c874 (Link to this contribution)

Can the hon. Member perhaps explain how the mixing of that milk will be changed by this Bill?

...
Stephen Farry | 718 c874 (Link to this contribution)

The mixing of the milk will not happen, because milk from Northern Ireland will not be accepted f...

Stephen Farry | 718 c874 (Link to this contribution)

It is not unreasonable. It is basically common sense, because the milk cannot be certified as bei...

Ian Jnr Paisley | 718 c874 (Link to this contribution)

But it’s coming from the same cows, being milked by the same machines.

Stephen Farry | 718 c874 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Member may say it is coming from the same cows and the same machines. The issue here is ...

Ian Jnr Paisley | 718 c874 (Link to this contribution)

This is just nonsense—this is bureaucracy at its worst.

Nigel Evans | 718 c874 (Link to this contribution)

Order. The same noise is coming from the same mouth, as well—let us stop that, please.

Stephen Farry | 718 c875 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman tempts me to refer to the time when his father famously said that the people o...

Jeffrey M Donaldson | 718 c875 (Link to this contribution)

I have listened intently to the hon. Member and I am left confused by what he has to say. As I un...

Stephen Farry | 718 c875 (Link to this contribution)

I think perhaps the right hon. Member was not listening fully. The point relates to the inputs in...

Stephen Farry | 718 c875 (Link to this contribution)

I have already given way to many DUP Members.

Stephen Farry | 718 c876 (Link to this contribution)

No doubt the right hon. Gentleman will have a chance to speak shortly.

The outcomes here wi...

Stephen Farry | 718 cc876-7 (Link to this contribution)

Because in a free market situation, businesses want to maximise their sales. No business wants to...

Nigel Evans | 718 c877 (Link to this contribution)

Just to remind everybody, if you were not here from the very beginning I am afraid you cannot mak...

Michael Ellis | 718 cc877-8 (Link to this contribution)

I begin by thanking hon. Members for their participation in the debate so far. I remind them that...

Theresa Villiers | 718 c878 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. and learned Friend is right to highlight the significant frictions on trade within ...

Michael Ellis | 718 c878 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend makes a powerful and valid point. The Bill will ameliorate a plethora of pro...

Nigel Mills | 718 c878 (Link to this contribution)

Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm what the default position will be if a business has...

Michael Ellis | 718 c878 (Link to this contribution)

The first thing to state clearly is that no business will be forced to do anything. They will not...

Nigel Mills | 718 c879 (Link to this contribution)

Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way?

Michael Ellis | 718 c879 (Link to this contribution)

If I may, I will make a little more progress.

Clause 9 provides a Minister with the powers ...

Ian Jnr Paisley | 718 c879 (Link to this contribution)

This issue is very important because, before January 2021, goods travelling from GB to Northern I...

Michael Ellis | 718 c879 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful and succinct point.

Clause 11 gives Ministers appropria...

Michael Ellis | 718 c879 (Link to this contribution)

I will give way, but I am just about to come on to the amendments, so the right hon. Gentleman ma...

Hilary Benn | 718 c880 (Link to this contribution)

It is on the point that the Minister just raised. If I heard him correctly, he just said that the...

Michael Ellis | 718 c880 (Link to this contribution)

No. Businesses will not be obliged to follow any particular route. They will not be forced to fol...

Claire Hanna | 718 c880 (Link to this contribution)

We have been spun the narrative that this is about the consent and the engagement of Northern Ire...

Michael Ellis | 718 c881 (Link to this contribution)

May I put it this way? The Sewel convention applies to this Bill, as it does to all Bills of the ...

Michael Ellis | 718 c881 (Link to this contribution)

Forgive me, but I must make some progress. I am sure that there will be another opportunity to in...

Sammy Wilson | 718 cc881-2 (Link to this contribution)

Does the Minister note that, while the Opposition are now asking for an economic assessment of th...

Michael Ellis | 718 cc882-3 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Gentleman makes a powerful point, and it is one with which I tend to agree.

...

Claire Hanna | 718 c883 (Link to this contribution)

Does the Minister agree that the North-South Ministerial Council and other architecture of the Go...

Michael Ellis | 718 c883 (Link to this contribution)

I do not accept the characterisation of the hon. Lady’s point.

The aspects of new clauses 1...

Peter Kyle | 718 c883 (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship once again, Mr Evans.

I shall start by re...

Sammy Wilson | 718 c883 (Link to this contribution)

For the record, will the hon. Gentleman tell us the stance of his party on the protocol today?

Peter Kyle | 718 cc883-4 (Link to this contribution)

First, I am slightly disappointed that the right hon. Gentleman did not take the opportunity to c...

Ian Jnr Paisley | 718 c884 (Link to this contribution)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Peter Kyle | 718 c884 (Link to this contribution)

Of course I will give way, but I will not rehearse the debates of the previous two days.

Ian Jnr Paisley | 718 c884 (Link to this contribution)

I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s giving way. The issue of lawfulness, which he put on the agenda...

Peter Kyle | 718 c884 (Link to this contribution)

Again, I will not repeat the debate from the first day of Committee, when all those issues were e...

Stephen Farry | 718 c884 (Link to this contribution)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Peter Kyle | 718 c884 (Link to this contribution)

I am going to move on, because we need to stick to the clauses before us. I will give way once, b...

Stephen Farry | 718 c884 (Link to this contribution)

Hopefully it will be a very helpful intervention. Does the shadow Secretary of State agree that i...

Peter Kyle | 718 cc884-6 (Link to this contribution)

I am very grateful for that intervention. For the record, I think that all the interventions I re...

Hilary Benn | 718 c886 (Link to this contribution)

The dual regulatory regime raises more questions than it answers. If I understand the Government’...

Peter Kyle | 718 cc886-7 (Link to this contribution)

I am always very grateful to my right hon. Friend for his interventions in these debates; they al...

Peter Kyle | 718 c887 (Link to this contribution)

After I have made this point, I will, because I am always interested in the hon. Member’s views o...

Ian Jnr Paisley | 718 c887 (Link to this contribution)

On that technical point, as the hon. Member will accept, the protocol is an example of red tape b...

Peter Kyle | 718 c887 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Member talks about what I said, but all I did was quote the words of the Dairy Council f...

Sammy Wilson | 718 c887 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Member has to be very careful in listening to bodies that claim to be representative of ...

Peter Kyle | 718 cc887-8 (Link to this contribution)

The point I am making is quite clear. There is a difference of opinion here, and I think it is un...

Stephen Farry | 718 c888 (Link to this contribution)

Talking of putting things on the record, would the shadow Secretary of State join me in standing ...

Peter Kyle | 718 c888 (Link to this contribution)

I am certainly very grateful for the intervention, and to the witness for giving the benefit of h...

Jeffrey M Donaldson | 718 c889 (Link to this contribution)

I fear the shadow Secretary of State is approaching this on the premise that the dual regulatory ...

Peter Kyle | 718 c889 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful for the intervention. I make two simple points: first, I used the word “could” enco...

Jeffrey M Donaldson | 718 c889 (Link to this contribution)

Northern Ireland does not operate in a vacuum. A business in my constituency is no different from...

Peter Kyle | 718 c889 (Link to this contribution)

I am not quite sure where to start with that intervention. The right hon. Gentleman suggests we t...

Hilary Benn | 718 c890 (Link to this contribution)

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way; he is being most generous. The argument has ...

Peter Kyle | 718 c890 (Link to this contribution)

Again, my right hon. Friend makes a fundamental point about the weakness of the Bill. It is basic...

Richard Thomson | 718 cc890-1 (Link to this contribution)

I rise to speak to, or at least draw attention to, amendments 19 and 22 in my name, and to speak ...

Jeffrey M Donaldson | 718 c891 (Link to this contribution)

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate on the various amendments. I say to my hon...

Claire Hanna | 718 c891 (Link to this contribution)

I think Members across the Chamber would concur, and Hansard will certainly show, that I and othe...

Jeffrey M Donaldson | 718 c892 (Link to this contribution)

I welcome the intervention from the hon. Member, for whom who I have a high regard. It is importa...

Claire Hanna | 718 c892 (Link to this contribution)

Does the right hon. Member acknowledge that it feels duplicitous to many people for him and his c...

Jeffrey M Donaldson | 718 cc892-3 (Link to this contribution)

I have no desire whatever to replace Unionist discontentment with nationalist discontentment in N...

Claire Hanna | 718 c893 (Link to this contribution)

The SDLP is acutely aware of the sensitivity of people’s identity, but does the right hon. Member...

Jeffrey M Donaldson | 718 cc893-6 (Link to this contribution)

Absolutely. The customs checks I was referring to were in the context of proposals that the Gover...

Colum Eastwood | 718 c896 (Link to this contribution)

If the right hon. Member agrees that the North South Ministerial Council would be a good forum fo...

Jeffrey M Donaldson | 718 c896 (Link to this contribution)

I am as anxious as anyone to get back to having those discussions, and once the confidence of the...

Colum Eastwood | 718 c896 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Member makes an interesting point, and I think he is right when he says that it is...

Jeffrey M Donaldson | 718 cc896-7 (Link to this contribution)

We are seeking to find a solution that works for everyone, and we are listening to what business ...

Mary Kelly Foy | 718 cc897-8 (Link to this contribution)

I rise to speak in support of amendment 28.

It is frustrating and worrying that, yet again,...

Sammy Wilson | 718 cc898-900 (Link to this contribution)

First, as the Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member for Hove (Peter Kyle), seems to be very sensi...

Claire Hanna | 718 c900 (Link to this contribution)

Does the Member acknowledge that the North South Ministerial Council, when it is not being held t...

Sammy Wilson | 718 cc900-1 (Link to this contribution)

That brings me to my next point—that introducing reserved matters to the North South Ministerial ...

Ian Jnr Paisley | 718 cc901-2 (Link to this contribution)

It is an honour to follow my right hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson).

T...

Stephen Farry | 718 c902 (Link to this contribution)

I am glad the hon. Gentleman is paying respect to Mike Johnston and his integrity. It was the rig...

Ian Jnr Paisley | 718 c903 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Member for that point, but I want to make it clear that I listened to the commen...

Carla Lockhart | 718 c903 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way; he is certainly in full flow. It is important to strip thi...

Ian Jnr Paisley | 718 cc903-5 (Link to this contribution)

The point about seed potatoes is particularly interesting, because that represents the entire com...

Michael Ellis | 718 c906 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to all the participants in this important debate. Very briefly, I would like to rei...

Peter Kyle | 718 c918 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move amendment 37, page 7, line 10, leave out “the Minister considers appropriate” and i...

Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 718 c918 (Link to this contribution)

With this it will be convenient to discuss:

Clause stand part.

Amendment 41, in claus...

Peter Kyle | 718 cc918-9 (Link to this contribution)

Thank you Dame Eleanor; it is a privilege to serve under your chairship this afternoon.

We ...

Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 718 c919 (Link to this contribution)

I am happy to tell the hon. Gentleman how impressed I am by that.

John Redwood | 718 cc919-920 (Link to this contribution)

I welcome the notion of measures that restore our control over VAT and subsidies in Northern Irel...

Sammy Wilson | 718 cc920-1 (Link to this contribution)

Although the proposer of the amendments, the hon. Member for Hove (Peter Kyle), has said that the...

Stephen Farry | 718 cc921-2 (Link to this contribution)

I will be brief, as I have just a few short points. First, I recognise that there are genuine con...

Ian Jnr Paisley | 718 c922 (Link to this contribution)

Last autumn, the Chancellor announced several VAT changes and confirmed that he had to speak to t...

Stephen Farry | 718 c922 (Link to this contribution)

There are two points to raise on that. The first is about the practicalities. My understanding is...

Gavin Robinson | 718 cc922-3 (Link to this contribution)

I heard your positive assent, Dame Eleanor, when the shadow Secretary of State sat down, and you ...

Gavin Robinson | 718 c923 (Link to this contribution)

Civil aviation parts are tariff-free internationally anyway, and large manufacturers such as Spir...

Stephen Farry | 718 c924 (Link to this contribution)

Indeed, and I am having dinner later tonight with representatives from an esteemed local company ...

Gavin Robinson | 718 c924 (Link to this contribution)

No, I would not agree at all with that, because the tariffs came long before the TCA and arise fr...

Jeffrey M Donaldson | 718 c924 (Link to this contribution)

Being named after another esteemed Member of this House is, I am sure, a fitting tribute, but tha...

Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 718 c924 (Link to this contribution)

I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman; I have just realised that I called him by the wrong name...

Jeffrey M Donaldson | 718 c924 (Link to this contribution)

Robinson is quite a popular name in the Democratic Unionist party. I am honoured to join my hon. ...

Sammy Wilson | 718 c925 (Link to this contribution)

Does my right hon. Friend accept that this is an issue not just for us Unionists? It should be an...

Jeffrey M Donaldson | 718 c925 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend is right, of course. That goes to the heart of what Brexit is about. The man...

Sammy Wilson | 718 c925 (Link to this contribution)

There is the argument that says, “Well, you could negotiate this. We should go back to the EU and...

Jeffrey M Donaldson | 718 c925 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend makes a valid point, but the matter goes further than that. It is not just t...

Stephen Farry | 718 cc925-6 (Link to this contribution)

It may surprise the right hon. Gentleman that I have quite a lot of sympathy with what he is sayi...

Jeffrey M Donaldson | 718 c926 (Link to this contribution)

I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman makes, but negotiations have taken place and all t...

Lucy Frazer | 718 cc926-7 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster Genera...

Stephen Farry | 718 c927 (Link to this contribution)

Will the Financial Secretary clarify whether the Treasury has made any approach to the European C...

Lucy Frazer | 718 cc927-8 (Link to this contribution)

As the hon. Member will know, because the point has been raised across the Committee over the pas...

John Redwood | 718 c928 (Link to this contribution)

Will the Financial Secretary confirm that the Treasury will never use the argument that we must n...

Lucy Frazer | 718 cc928-9 (Link to this contribution)

After this legislation has passed, we will be able to introduce VAT legislation across the UK in ...

Peter Kyle | 718 c929 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister has clarified that the Government would not act on a whim. However, she did so by sa...

Peter Bone | 718 c929 (Link to this contribution)

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I thought it might be appropriate to draw the House’s ...

Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 718 c929 (Link to this contribution)

I will take any points of order further to that point of order. I see that there are none. I than...

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