UK Parliament / Open data

HMRC Closures

Backbench debate on Thursday, 2 November 2017, in the House of Commons, led by Stuart C McDonald. The answering members were Mel Stride and Peter Dowd.
Motion that this House has considered HM Revenue and Customs closures. Agreed to on question. Sitting adjourned without Question put.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
630 cc465-6WH 
Session
2017-19
Department
Treasury
Chamber / Committee
Westminster Hall
The HMRC estate. Public Accounts Committee fifty-third report with formal minutes.
Thursday, 20 April 2017
Parliamentary committees
House of Commons
General debate on HMRC closures
Monday, 13 November 2017
Research briefings
Proceeding contributions
Stuart C McDonald | 630 c465WH (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move,

That this House has considered HM Revenue and Customs closures.

It is ...

Jim Cunningham | 630 c465WH (Link to this contribution)

The HMRC office in Coventry is going to close very soon, costing about 300 jobs. People will be e...


Show all contributions (104)
Stuart C McDonald | 630 c465WH (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman makes a series of valid points, and they are valid for the whole range of site...

Imran Hussain | 630 c436WH (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for securing this important debate on a subject that matters ...

Stuart C McDonald | 630 c436WH (Link to this contribution)

Indeed. That is the argument that I will come on to make. Centralising those jobs in city centres...

David Drew | 630 c436WH (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it would help if, at the very least, some research was done in...

Stuart C McDonald | 630 c436WH (Link to this contribution)

I agree entirely. In a nutshell, that is the point of my speech. We have an opportunity now to pa...

Martyn Day | 630 c436WH (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is extremely disappointing that the UK Government decided to re...

Stuart C McDonald | 630 cc436-8WH (Link to this contribution)

I happily join my hon. Friend in making that call of the Minister. In essence, there are strong r...

Luke Graham | 630 cc438-9WH (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. I congratulate the hon. Member for ...

John Grogan | 630 c439WH (Link to this contribution)

I want to make one central point, which is to do with the eight location principles that the Reve...

Chris Stephens | 630 c439WH (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there should have been an assessment of the social and economi...

John Grogan | 630 c440WH (Link to this contribution)

That was going to be my next central point. It seems very negligent that such social and economic...

David Drew | 630 c440WH (Link to this contribution)

I thank my hon. Friend for being so generous in giving way. The Government and the previous Gover...

John Grogan | 630 c440WH (Link to this contribution)

I have studied the eight points carefully, and there does not seem to be any rural proofing, whic...

Lisa Cameron | 630 cc440-1WH (Link to this contribution)

It is an absolute pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. I am extremely grateful t...

Jim McMahon | 630 cc441-2WH (Link to this contribution)

This is a really important debate. To provide some context, the HMRC office in my constituency cl...

Imran Hussain | 630 c442WH (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes his point, as always, very eloquently. He mentioned Brexit, and another angl...

Jim McMahon | 630 cc442-3WH (Link to this contribution)

That is a good point. One of the biggest gaps in the whole Brexit conversation is not only the tr...

Chris Stephens | 630 c443WH (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman raises an important point. Does he agree that local knowledge is vital and tha...

Jim McMahon | 630 cc443-4WH (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman makes a very fair point. The relationships among other local service providers...

Paul Williams | 630 cc444-5WH (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. I thank the hon. Member for Cumbern...

Imran Hussain | 630 cc445-6WH (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. May I put on the record my apprecia...

Jim McMahon | 630 c446WH (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend agree that the consistent message that value for money reviews were not carri...

Imran Hussain | 630 cc446-7WH (Link to this contribution)

As always, my hon. Friend is absolutely right. These issues are arising with increasing consisten...

Chris Stephens | 630 c447WH (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman talks about people in ivory towers. Is it not ironic that people who are made ...

Imran Hussain | 630 c447WH (Link to this contribution)

I absolutely agree; the hon. Gentleman makes a fine point.

Luke Graham | 630 c447WH (Link to this contribution)

As the hon. Gentleman mentioned, connectivity is key. I represent a constituency that is not so w...

Imran Hussain | 630 c447WH (Link to this contribution)

Absolutely; I agree. I was coming to that very point and to the point made by my hon. Friend the ...

Chris Stephens | 630 cc447-9WH (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Davies. Like other hon. Members, I thank you for you...

Jim McMahon | 630 c449WH (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman agree with my suspicion that the end was decided before the criteria that...

Chris Stephens | 630 cc449-450WH (Link to this contribution)

I do, and I think it has been driven by cost. One other area is that while I and my hon. Friends ...

Luke Graham | 630 c450WH (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that recent figures show that unpaid tax is at a record low, so som...

Chris Stephens | 630 c450WH (Link to this contribution)

I will meet the hon. Gentleman half way. I do not believe that unpaid taxes are at a new low. In ...

Ged Killen | 630 c450WH (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman agree with me that, with the combination of Brexit and the devolution of ...

Chris Stephens | 630 cc450-2WH (Link to this contribution)

I agree with the hon. Gentleman. The next question is rather obvious: “Where are all these staff ...

Peter Dowd | 630 cc451-4WH (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to serve under your stewardship, Mr Davies. Where do we begin with this situatio...

Mel Stride | 630 c454WH (Link to this contribution)

The issue of making decisions during purdah has already been raised. It is right and proper that ...

Peter Dowd | 630 c455WH (Link to this contribution)

I take the Minister’s point, but there is always an issue in government.

Chris Stephens | 630 c455WH (Link to this contribution)

I listened to the Minister’s intervention. Does the shadow Minister agree that it is somewhat iro...

Peter Dowd | 630 c455WH (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Some of them cost an arm and a leg. The Minister should t...

Jim McMahon | 630 c455WH (Link to this contribution)

I am afraid that I do not buy the Minister’s explanation at all. The delays to the lease being co...

Peter Dowd | 630 cc455-6WH (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes an excellent and valid point. The Government should think those sorts of thi...

Mel Stride | 630 c456WH (Link to this contribution)

May I say what a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies? I know this is an im...

Peter Dowd | 630 c456WH (Link to this contribution)

I do not think anybody disagrees with the Minister on the collection of tax, but that is all the ...

Mel Stride | 630 c457WH (Link to this contribution)

A number of Members in the debate raised the costs mentioned in the National Audit Office report,...

Grahame Morris | 630 c457WH (Link to this contribution)

On value for money, I happen to agree with a number of points made about the opportunity here to ...

Mel Stride | 630 cc457-8WH (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman makes two points. One is a general point about the economic sense, or otherwis...

Jim McMahon | 630 c458WH (Link to this contribution)

I am not sure whether the Minister’s tactic is to talk at length about matters on which there is ...

Mel Stride | 630 c458WH (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is right: much of the debate has focused on the matters to which he refers. I ...

Stuart C McDonald | 630 c458WH (Link to this contribution)

Everyone in the Chamber is in favour of much of the approach to digitalisation of the tax process...

Mel Stride | 630 c458WH (Link to this contribution)

I do not accept that point. We could take it to its logical conclusion and assume that everyone c...

Chris Stephens | 630 c459WH (Link to this contribution)

Could I ask the Minister two questions, then? First, on the criteria for where to locate the offi...

Mel Stride | 630 c459WH (Link to this contribution)

On the latter point—the specific query— I will have to get back to the hon. Gentleman, but on the...

Mel Stride | 630 c459WH (Link to this contribution)

Could I just make one other point? The relocation does not necessarily mean that all the employee...

Chris Stephens | 630 c459WH (Link to this contribution)

I thank the Minister for giving way again. Can he confirm whether the Department will publish an ...

Mel Stride | 630 c459WH (Link to this contribution)

We are not publishing the kind of impact assessment that the hon. Gentleman suggests, but my poin...

Jim McMahon | 630 c459WH (Link to this contribution)

Is the Minister seriously suggesting that Manchester city centre, 7 miles away from Oldham town c...

Mel Stride | 630 c459WH (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that I have not come here prepared with all the precise detail...

Jim McMahon | 630 c460WH (Link to this contribution)

On that basis, can the Minister confirm today that the Department will release that location asse...

Mel Stride | 630 c460WH (Link to this contribution)

No. I am not going to commit to bringing forward all sorts of reports and things that various hon...

Imran Hussain | 630 c460WH (Link to this contribution)

Does the Minister agree that one of the most important areas that needs an assessment in these pr...

Mel Stride | 630 c460WH (Link to this contribution)

That prompts the question of what the overarching purpose of HMRC is: to provide customer service...

Peter Dowd | 630 c460WH (Link to this contribution)

The Minister has referred to the eight criteria on numerous occasions. I am trying to get my head...

Mel Stride | 630 c460WH (Link to this contribution)

The criteria are there to allow a balanced judgment across the eight criteria as to where the bes...

Lisa Cameron | 630 c460WH (Link to this contribution)

The Minister’s colleagues in Departments such as the Department for International Development fee...

Mel Stride | 630 c460WH (Link to this contribution)

As the hon. Lady knows, a transition office will be kept in East Kilbride; it would certainly not...

Paul Williams | 630 c461WH (Link to this contribution)

We do not doubt that an assessment has been made. We simply want to see for ourselves that object...

Mel Stride | 630 c461WH (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman has asked precisely the same question that the hon. Member for Bootle (Peter D...

John Grogan | 630 c461WH (Link to this contribution)

The Minister is being extraordinarily generous in giving way. Is he not at all concerned about cr...

Mel Stride | 630 c461WH (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman raises the issue of crowding out private sector investment, but I am primarily...

Chris Stephens | 630 c461WH (Link to this contribution)

Can the Minister explain how closing HMRC offices, with a lack of local knowledge, helps to bridg...

Mel Stride | 630 c461WH (Link to this contribution)

The corollary to that argument is that we might better close the tax gap by opening another sever...

Imran Hussain | 630 c461WH (Link to this contribution)

The Minister is being very kind with his time today. He talks about the need for regional

<...

Mel Stride | 630 c462WH (Link to this contribution)

The answer is similar to the one I gave the hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmaha...

Chris Stephens | 630 c462WH (Link to this contribution)

The Minister is being more than generous. Can he confirm that there are currently 400 employees i...

Mel Stride | 630 c462WH (Link to this contribution)

It depends. The hon. Gentleman’s question begs another question, which is what exactly he means b...

Mel Stride | 630 c462WH (Link to this contribution)

If it is a specific department—I am sure it is—I am happy to get back to him on that point. I wil...

Jim McMahon | 630 c462WH (Link to this contribution)

I thank the Minister for giving way. According to my time, we have an hour and 10 minutes of inte...

Mel Stride | 630 c463WH (Link to this contribution)

That is the third time that basic question has been asked, and I am not going to give a different...

Paul Williams | 630 c463WH (Link to this contribution)

The Minister said that the vast majority of people who will transfer are within reasonable distan...

Mel Stride | 630 c463WH (Link to this contribution)

I shall get back to the hon. Gentleman on precisely what that means. I suspect it is a travel-to-...

Chris Stephens | 630 c463WH (Link to this contribution)

Can the Minister confirm that the original criterion for reasonable travel distance that was used...

Mel Stride | 630 cc463-4WH (Link to this contribution)

I shall give the hon. Gentleman the same answer I gave to the hon. Member for Stockton South (Dr ...

Lisa Cameron | 630 c464WH (Link to this contribution)

I thank the Minister for giving way; he is being generous in that regard, at least. Are the cost ...

Mel Stride | 630 c464WH (Link to this contribution)

The cost savings are for an investment of £552 million over 10 years. Firstly, they arise through...

Chris Stephens | 630 c464WH (Link to this contribution)

On cost savings, can the Minister provide an explanation of why, during purdah, a contract was si...

Mel Stride | 630 c464WH (Link to this contribution)

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the criteria applied in taking the decision were not simply about co...

Mel Stride | 630 c464WH (Link to this contribution)

This must be about my 30th intervention; I am delighted to give way to the shadow Minister.

Peter Dowd | 630 c465WH (Link to this contribution)

The Minister is being incredibly generous with his time. The question of the criteria goes to the...

Graham Stringer | 630 c465WH (Link to this contribution)

Order. We have just over an hour left, but I remind hon. Members that interventions should be sho...

Mel Stride | 630 c465WH (Link to this contribution)

Thank you, Mr Stringer. I should agree with the hon. Member for Bootle if the premise of his asse...

Jim McMahon | 630 c465WH (Link to this contribution)

On a point of order, Mr Stringer. The Minister has said a number of times that an assessment has ...

Graham Stringer | 630 c465WH (Link to this contribution)

That is a matter of fact, not a point of order relating to the debate.

Mel Stride | 630 c465WH (Link to this contribution)

I give way to the hon. Gentleman.

Peter Dowd | 630 c465WH (Link to this contribution)

I shall write to the Minister about this; but the bottom line is that when I asked senior officer...

Mel Stride | 630 c465WH (Link to this contribution)

We can go round and round this for some time, but HMRC has a very clear set of criteria. It has l...

Chris Stephens | 630 c465WH (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Stringer. The Minister has not yet mentioned the min...

Mel Stride | 630 cc465-6WH (Link to this contribution)

It is the duty of HMRC to ensure the minimum wage is adhered to and that it is rigorous and robus...

Stuart C McDonald | 630 c466WH (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Stringer. I thank all hon. Members for their contrib...

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