I am grateful for that intervention. The people of Wales will listen to what politicians have said today, and they will make their own judgment. My personal view, for what it is worth, is that the number of seats that a party has within an electoral body should reflect the percentage of votes they receive during the election. We will see how things develop in Wales.
My hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd spoke at some length about clause 10. Needless to say, I agree with every word she says, and I will join her in the Lobby to vote against it later this evening.
Amendment 33, tabled by my hon. Friends, is designed to ensure that the legislature of Wales has to authorise the drawing of money from the Consolidated Fund and that such funds can be used only for the purposes for which they were authorised. This is straightforward, and I hope that the UK Government will accept it.
Under clause 14, the Secretary of State will no longer be statutorily bound to visit the National Assembly each year. This is a positive move, which equalises the relationship between the Westminster Parliament and the National Assembly. It might also save the embarrassment of some of the less active Members in the National Assembly. I seem to recall a story from the last Assembly in which the previous Secretary of State for Wales, the right hon. Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones)—I am disappointed that he is not in his place, because I think he would have enjoyed this—had spoken more words than the previous Assembly Member for Islwyn.
Amendments 38 to 45 are technical, and I hope the UK Government will accept them. They deal with the naming of the legislature and the establishment of a legislatures commission in the event of a name change, and ensures that the provisions in clause 15 extend to both the English language and the Welsh language names.
4.15 pm
I am afraid that amendment 11 leaves me in some anguish. On the face of it, in view of legitimate concerns over the debate about the fiscal framework that will need to accompany the devolution of income tax powers to Wales, there needs to be some sort of “safety trigger” advice enabling the National Assembly of Wales to protect itself should the Treasury decide to pull a fast one. The fact that Scotland has secured a favourable deal in relation to its fiscal framework is of little comfort when we are discussing the Welsh situation. Following the bitter experiences of the Barnett formula, there is a danger that Wales will once again be handed an inferior settlement, with huge potential costs to the Welsh taxpayer.
On Second Reading, I said that I wanted to see a Treasury statement of some sort before finally making up my mind about fiscal framework provisions in the Bill. I am pleased to see that a representative of the Treasury is present, and listening to the debate. In fact, however, the National Assembly does have such a “safety trigger” device. Political parties can, if they so choose, vote down the Bill during proceedings on the legislative consent motion, once it has been triggered by the Welsh Government.
It is clear that the Labour party in Wales is desperate to avoid fiscal responsibility. While I have to say—although the Financial Secretary is present—that I do not trust the Treasury as far as I can throw it to protect the interests of Wales, I should add, if the Shadow Secretary of State will forgive me, that neither have I much faith in the Labour party to put the interests of Wales first. It seems to me that amendment 11 is intended to ensure that Labour will be able to veto the devolution of income tax powers to Wales. I do not believe that a Government should be able to choose whether they should be fiscally responsible, and, with that in mind, I cannot and will not support the amendment.
I fully support clause 16. The principle of fiscal devolution has already been conceded with the devolution of minor taxes. I said on Second Reading that referendums should be held on issues involving a major constitutional change. Wales is on a journey towards a system whereby more of its tax receipts will be kept directly in Wales, as opposed to being collected by the Treasury and sent home. I welcome the change in approach, and hope to
lubricate the process so that the vast majority of taxes are kept in Wales. In my opinion, the only major reserved tax should be national insurance, to cover the costs of social protection.
My hon. Friend the Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) has already spoken about clause 18. I support amendment 13, tabled by members of the official Opposition, which transfers all functions currently exercisable by Ministers of the Crown in devolved areas to Welsh Ministers. Having read amendments 14 and 15, I am none the wiser about what they endeavour to achieve. Amendment 16 appears to back up amendment 13, which, as I have said, I support. We have no problems with clauses 20 and 21.
That brings me to new clauses 2 and 3. I begin my argument with a simple truism. Every single member of the Conservative and Labour parties in the House of Commons supported full income tax powers for Scotland during the passage of the Bill that became the Scotland Act 2016. I cannot understand the political reasoning for supporting the devolution of a major job creation lever to Scotland while denying it to Wales.
During discussion of the Bill, the Conservative party’s position was presented by the Secretary of State for Scotland, who said:
“The Scottish Parliament will see a huge increase in its financial accountability to the people of Scotland.
The major new powers of tax, welfare and other matters will give added weight and effectiveness to the powers it already possesses.
So significant are the changes to its powers, and so immense the potential for their use, the Scotland Bill will create, in effect, a new Scottish Parliament.
In tech-speak, you could say that this will be ‘Holyrood 2.0’.”
Labour Members were equally excitable. The former shadow Secretary of State for Scotland, the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray), said:
“When this Bill becomes law, it will present the Scottish Parliament with the opportunity to make Scotland the fairest nation on earth.”
I could have a lot of fun reading out quotes relating to the Scotland Bill, but this raises a serious question for my political opponents.
My new clause 3 would enable income tax receipts from Wales to be paid directly into the Wales consolidated fund. Effectively, there would be 100% devolution of income tax, as enjoyed by Scotland. If the Conservatives supported full income tax powers for Scotland to make the Scottish Parliament more accountable to the people of Scotland, why do they oppose the same powers for Wales? If Labour supported those powers because they would enable the Scottish Government to create the “fairest nation on earth”, why are they opposed to empowering their own Government in Wales with the same powers to achieve that laudable aim?