UK Parliament / Open data

Criminal Justice and Courts Bill

Debate on bills on Monday, 24 February 2014, in the House of Commons, led by Lord Grayling and Shailesh Vara. The answering members were Sadiq Khan and Andy Slaughter.
Second reading agreed to on question. Programme motion agreed to on question. Money resolution agreed to on question. Ways and Means resulution agreed to on question. Carry-over motion agreed to on question.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
576 cc46-127 
Session
2013-14
Department
Ministry of Justice
Legislative stage
Second reading
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Criminal Justice and Courts Bill 2013-14
Wednesday, 5 February 2014
Bills
House of Commons
Criminal Justice and Courts Bill: Carry-over Extension
Tuesday, 13 January 2015
Parliamentary proceedings
House of Commons
Criminal Justice and Courts Bill
Thursday, 20 February 2014
Research briefings
Proceeding contributions
Lord Grayling | 576 cc47-9 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

The Criminal Justice and Courts Bil...

Julian Huppert | 576 c49 (Link to this contribution)

Will the Secretary of State say what the cost of that programme will be and how successful prosec...


Show all contributions (158)
Lord Grayling | 576 cc49-50 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that the existing radio-based tagging technology has been pret...

Lord Garnier | 576 c50 (Link to this contribution)

Before my right hon. Friend moves on to part 2, will he provide an estimate of the additional cos...

Lord Grayling | 576 cc50-1 (Link to this contribution)

The cost will build up over the next five or 10 years because, as my hon. and learned Friend know...

Karl Turner | 576 c51 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the Lord Chancellor for giving way and I am interested in where the £85 million ...

Lord Grayling | 576 c51 (Link to this contribution)

It comes from my Department’s capital budget and it will lead to a reduction in the annual runnin...

Kate Green | 576 c51 (Link to this contribution)

If this model is considered to be as successful as the Lord Chancellor obviously believes it will...

Lord Grayling | 576 cc51-2 (Link to this contribution)

On co-location, there are a number of places in our current system where men and women, or indeed...

Keith Vaz | 576 c52 (Link to this contribution)

I apologise to the Lord Chancellor for missing the first part of his speech. I welcome his approa...

Lord Grayling | 576 c52 (Link to this contribution)

As the right hon. Gentleman knows, we already make intense efforts across our detention estate—fo...

Julian Huppert | 576 c52 (Link to this contribution)

The Justice Secretary is absolutely right that there are other powers. The latest figure I could ...

Lord Grayling | 576 c53 (Link to this contribution)

The collection rate of fines and other charges levelled in the courts is in excess of 80%. There ...

Kate Green | 576 c53 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way; he is being very generous with his time. When fu...

Lord Grayling | 576 cc53-4 (Link to this contribution)

We will not change the order of the collection of fines and victims’ charges. The collection of c...

Jeremy Corbyn | 576 c54 (Link to this contribution)

Does the Secretary of State not think it a bit dangerous for such cases to be dealt with by a sin...

Lord Grayling | 576 c54 (Link to this contribution)

We have a high-quality magistracy in this country, and I am confident that, in simple cases—when ...

Jonathan Djanogly | 576 c54 (Link to this contribution)

Is it not the case that, if one magistrate is allocated but the defendant wants there to be three...

Lord Grayling | 576 c54 (Link to this contribution)

Indeed, but in my experience, most magistrates would regard themselves as being perfectly capable...

Jeremy Corbyn | 576 c54 (Link to this contribution)

At what level would it be decided whether there should be one magistrate or three, and what would...

Lord Grayling | 576 c54 (Link to this contribution)

Typically, these will be uncontested cases. A contested case in which the defendant wished to ple...

Robert Neill | 576 c54 (Link to this contribution)

Does my right hon. Friend not agree that in most instances not only is the case uncontested, but ...

Lord Grayling | 576 c54 (Link to this contribution)

I would say to my hon. Friend, and indeed to the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn),...

Robert Buckland | 576 c55 (Link to this contribution)

Will my right hon. Friend ensure that when this streamlined procedure is adopted, pre-hearing con...

Lord Grayling | 576 c55 (Link to this contribution)

That is a very good point, which we should certainly take on board.

Kate Green | 576 c55 (Link to this contribution)

In the context of this part of the Bill, I should place on record my interest as a life member of...

Lord Grayling | 576 c55 (Link to this contribution)

I have made it very clear that we must not lose transparency as a result of our reforms. In today...

Lord Garnier | 576 c55 (Link to this contribution)

I commend my right hon. Friend on the provisions relating to juries, and on clause 39 in particul...

Lord Grayling | 576 c56 (Link to this contribution)

I hear what my hon. and learned Friend says, but I am not sure that we could afford to raise the ...

Julian Huppert | 576 c56 (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps I have misunderstood clause 53, but it seems to suggest that interveners will have to pay...

Lord Grayling | 576 c56 (Link to this contribution)

My real concern is when pressure groups use individuals as financial human shields in cases that ...

Kate Green | 576 c57 (Link to this contribution)

I suppose I should declare an interest in this context as well, given that I used to run a pressu...

Lord Grayling | 576 c57 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady certainly did bring cases against the previous Government, but the Secretary of Sta...

Keith Vaz | 576 c57 (Link to this contribution)

The Government have taken away the right of appeal in a number of immigration cases, and the Mini...

Lord Grayling | 576 c57 (Link to this contribution)

We assess carefully each immigration case that comes before the Border Agency and there is then t...

Robert Neill | 576 c57 (Link to this contribution)

Will my right hon. Friend take on board the fact that, unfortunately, previous interventions have...

Lord Grayling | 576 cc57-8 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is absolutely right about that, which is one reason why we have sought to ensure t...

Sadiq Khan | 576 cc58-9 (Link to this contribution)

Let us be frank: this Bill has come from nowhere. If the Government really wanted a new justice B...

Sadiq Khan | 576 c59 (Link to this contribution)

I give way to the Chair of the Justice Committee.

Lord Beith | 576 c59 (Link to this contribution)

Does the right hon. Gentleman see real benefit in returning to the days of a Labour Government wh...

Sadiq Khan | 576 cc59-60 (Link to this contribution)

I am really pleased that the right hon. Gentleman asked that question. This is the third justice ...

Lord Grayling | 576 c60 (Link to this contribution)

If the right hon. Gentleman looks back, he will see that in the latter part of the past decade in...

Sadiq Khan | 576 c61 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Gentleman confirms that he made a huge error in abolishing the indeterminate sente...

Gareth Johnson | 576 c61 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the Library briefing paper. He will have noticed that the high...

Sadiq Khan | 576 c61 (Link to this contribution)

If the hon. Gentleman had done some more research and read the Bill as well, he would have seen n...

Lord Grayling | 576 c61 (Link to this contribution)

If the right hon. Gentleman looks at the numbers, he will see that we are planning in the next 15...

Sadiq Khan | 576 c62 (Link to this contribution)

The problem is that the Justice Secretary is closing down prisons and does not explain where the ...

Lord Grayling | 576 c62 (Link to this contribution)

There is a simple answer—those figures are in the budget.

Sadiq Khan | 576 c62 (Link to this contribution)

They are not in the budget, because the average cost of a prisoner is £42,000 a year. If we multi...

Lord Grayling | 576 c62 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Gentleman needs to spend a bit of time doing maths. I simply point, for example, t...

Sadiq Khan | 576 c62 (Link to this contribution)

I am happy to have a ding-dong with the Justice Secretary. That figure applies in prisons such as...

Julian Huppert | 576 c62 (Link to this contribution)

While the right hon. Gentleman is in the mood to do mathematics, will he advise us of the extra c...

Sadiq Khan | 576 c62 (Link to this contribution)

If we did a cost-benefit analysis of the number of people who were saved the misery of being the ...

Keith Vaz | 576 c62 (Link to this contribution)

As my right hon. Friend knows, there is a large number of foreign national prisoners in the priso...

Sadiq Khan | 576 cc63-5 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend will know that the number of foreign prisoners in our prisons is just a bit ...

Kate Green | 576 c65 (Link to this contribution)

I am glad that my right hon. Friend makes that point, because the Justice Secretary is quite wron...

Sadiq Khan | 576 cc65-6 (Link to this contribution)

Absolutely. The concerns are that as a consequence of the changes decisions made by Ministers and...

Lord Grayling | 576 c66 (Link to this contribution)

It is the case, if I am not mistaken, that HS2 can happen only if the relevant measure is passed ...

Sadiq Khan | 576 c66 (Link to this contribution)

That question raises so many concerns about the Justice Secretary’s lack of knowledge that it is ...

Philip Davies | 576 c66 (Link to this contribution)

I am slightly perturbed by what the right hon. Gentleman has said. These are not decisions that m...

Sadiq Khan | 576 c66 (Link to this contribution)

I do not subscribe to the view that citizens have a role to play only once every five years. They...

Sadiq Khan | 576 cc66-7 (Link to this contribution)

I shall make some progress, but I shall come back to the hon. Gentleman.

I hold up my hands...

Jonathan Djanogly | 576 cc67-9 (Link to this contribution)

I am not sure whether I have been described before as a bored, troublesome Back Bencher, but I wh...

George Howarth | 576 c69 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is right to make the point that he does about minor traffic offences, but alon...

Jonathan Djanogly | 576 cc69-70 (Link to this contribution)

I certainly agree with that. The Minister may wish to come back to this, but I think that that wo...

Elfyn Llwyd | 576 cc70-1 (Link to this contribution)

I am pleased to have an opportunity to take part in this debate, although several provisions in t...

Julian Huppert | 576 c71 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Gentleman, as ever, is making some interesting points, but is he really saying tha...

Elfyn Llwyd | 576 cc71-4 (Link to this contribution)

No, I am not saying that. In fact, I was a long-time critic of the Blair Administration, who intr...

Lord Grayling | 576 c72 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Gentleman refers to contracting out to private companies. It is worth putting on r...

Elfyn Llwyd | 576 cc72-6 (Link to this contribution)

I hear what the Secretary of State says. He also said earlier that this will basically be a colle...

Lord Herbert of South Downs | 576 c75 (Link to this contribution)

Unlike the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd), I welcome many of the sensible pr...

Sadiq Khan | 576 c75 (Link to this contribution)

I am surprised by the right hon. Gentleman’s comments, because he is usually thorough in his rese...

Lord Herbert of South Downs | 576 cc75-7 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Gentleman seems to be confirming that he does not believe that there is a problem,...

Guy Opperman | 576 c77 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend is making a very good speech. To take him back to his more serious point, do...

Lord Herbert of South Downs | 576 c77 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is right to bring me back to my serious point, and I wholly agree with him. That i...

Bob Stewart | 576 c77 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my right hon. Friend for making a very good point. I have listened to him carefully. Is i...

Lord Herbert of South Downs | 576 c78 (Link to this contribution)

That is what I meant by the concept of having minimum and maximum sentences. There would still be...

Guy Opperman | 576 c78 (Link to this contribution)

I entirely endorse my right hon. Friend’s point that localisation is surely the key to driving up...

Lord Herbert of South Downs | 576 cc78-9 (Link to this contribution)

I strongly agree with my hon. Friend. Having been a Minister in both the Home Office and the Mini...

Keith Vaz | 576 c79 (Link to this contribution)

I agree about the use of technology, but, as the saga of G4S and Serco has demonstrated, in handi...

Lord Herbert of South Downs | 576 cc79-80 (Link to this contribution)

As ever, I do not disagree with the right hon. Gentleman. That is an issue of accountability. We ...

David TC Davies | 576 c80 (Link to this contribution)

Does my right hon. Friend agree that this is a problem of unforeseen consequences? One reason suc...

Lord Herbert of South Downs | 576 cc80-1 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend speaks from his experience as a special constable. What he says is certainly the c...

Guy Opperman | 576 c81 (Link to this contribution)

I speak as someone who battled my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly) over the cl...

Lord Herbert of South Downs | 576 cc81-2 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend, who represents a very rural constituency, makes an interesting point that leads o...

Keith Vaz | 576 c82 (Link to this contribution)

It is a great pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert)...

Guy Opperman | 576 c82 (Link to this contribution)

Despite 20 years of advocacy and despite what I felt was a very strong case, my youthful appearan...

Keith Vaz | 576 cc82-3 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that long explanation. I am surprised that he lost the battle, but...

Keith Vaz | 576 c83 (Link to this contribution)

Then I admire his patience in sitting through the entire debate and I wish him well in his minist...

David TC Davies | 576 c83 (Link to this contribution)

Is it the case that the Government have had to consider this matter because with the encouragemen...

Keith Vaz | 576 cc83-4 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman served on the Home Affairs Committee and therefore knows how the Home Office d...

Guy Opperman | 576 c84 (Link to this contribution)

I served on the Immigration Public Bill Committee and the overwhelming view was that, yes, the Ho...

Keith Vaz | 576 c84 (Link to this contribution)

I have no objection to that. I agree with the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) that ...

Guy Opperman | 576 c84 (Link to this contribution)

With great respect, the implication of the last comment is that there is no right of appeal whate...

Keith Vaz | 576 cc84-5 (Link to this contribution)

The right of appeal will be taken away by clause 11 of the Immigration Bill. An application can, ...

Keith Vaz | 576 c86 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is going to tell us which bookshops his book is available in.

Guy Opperman | 576 c86 (Link to this contribution)

The book, “Doing Time” is actually still available. Amazingly, there are a few copies left. I has...

Keith Vaz | 576 cc86-7 (Link to this contribution)

That is a stunning figure, one that has probably remained the same, or even increased, in the pas...

Lord Beith | 576 cc87-8 (Link to this contribution)

I am very pleased to follow my fellow Select Committee Chairman, whose wise and thoughtful commen...

Guy Opperman | 576 c88 (Link to this contribution)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Lord Beith | 576 c88 (Link to this contribution)

I will, although I want to raise a number of points that the hon. Gentleman may wish to follow.

Guy Opperman | 576 c88 (Link to this contribution)

May I compliment the right hon. Gentleman on what he has said so far? Does he agree that there is...

Lord Beith | 576 cc88-91 (Link to this contribution)

That sounds like an attractive idea. However, there are some problems to which I do not yet see a...

Karl Turner | 576 c90 (Link to this contribution)

It is a privilege to follow the Chairman of the Justice Committee, the right hon. Member for Berw...

Keith Vaz | 576 c90 (Link to this contribution)

I should like to praise my hon. Friend. He served briefly on the Home Affairs Committee after he ...

Karl Turner | 576 cc90-2 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for making those remarks. He rightly said that I raised the...

Kate Green | 576 c92 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend agree that the Lord Chancellor is completely missing the point, as the majori...

Karl Turner | 576 cc92-3 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend made the point better than I was about to and has hit the nail entirely on the hea...

Simon Reevell | 576 c93 (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner). I declare a...

Karl Turner | 576 c93 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman speaks on these issues with real knowledge as a member of the Bar—he is a memb...

Simon Reevell | 576 cc93-4 (Link to this contribution)

My recollection is that the hon. Gentleman was a member of my circuit, but I will have a think ab...

Kate Green | 576 c94 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman’s point sounds reasonable, but the reality is that one of the parties is the s...

Simon Reevell | 576 cc94-6 (Link to this contribution)

I do not disagree, and that is why the Bill provides for circumstances in which that can happen. ...

Gareth Johnson | 576 cc96-8 (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury (Simon Reevell), who brings a g...

John McDonnell | 576 cc98-100 (Link to this contribution)

I doubt whether the Bill will be opposed today, but I hope that there will be time to consider am...

John McDonnell | 576 c100 (Link to this contribution)

I see that my hon. Friend on the Front Bench is shaking his head. I am happy for him to correct m...

Andy Slaughter | 576 c100 (Link to this contribution)

I congratulate my hon. Friend on his excellent speech. However, I think that some matters under t...

John McDonnell | 576 c100 (Link to this contribution)

I see. Again, we may well table amendments to broaden that protection, because we will rely on ju...

Philip Davies | 576 cc100-1 (Link to this contribution)

I am in a slightly unusual position this evening, in that I rise to support the Government on thi...

Julian Huppert | 576 c101 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman talks about road tax evasion; he is presumably aware that road tax was scrappe...

Philip Davies | 576 c101 (Link to this contribution)

I am not entirely sure what the hon. Gentleman is on about, but people do evade their road tax.

Philip Davies | 576 c102 (Link to this contribution)

Their vehicle excise duty. I am afraid that the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) has reinfo...

Philip Davies | 576 cc102-3 (Link to this contribution)

I certainly will not give way to the hon. Gentleman again. We have wasted enough time on his nons...

Kate Green | 576 c103 (Link to this contribution)

I am slightly puzzled by what the hon. Gentleman says. My understanding was that the victim surch...

Kate Green | 576 c103 (Link to this contribution)

I advise the hon. Gentleman that when I was a magistrate sitting on the bench, we applied the sur...

Philip Davies | 576 cc103-7 (Link to this contribution)

I am all for making sure that the victim is at the head of the queue when it comes to payments, b...

Baroness Bray of Coln | 576 cc107-9 (Link to this contribution)

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for calling me to speak in this important debate on our criminal...

Robert Neill | 576 c109 (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Angie Bray), a...

Robert Neill | 576 cc109-114 (Link to this contribution)

Given how the right hon. Gentleman shakes his head, I will take his word on that. I think we all ...

Julian Huppert | 576 cc114-5 (Link to this contribution)

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for calling me in this important debate. For far too many years ...

Philip Davies | 576 c115 (Link to this contribution)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Julian Huppert | 576 cc115-7 (Link to this contribution)

No. We heard enough from the hon. Gentleman in his rather long speech earlier. I know he disagree...

Andy Slaughter | 576 cc117-8 (Link to this contribution)

It is curious that a Government who did not think that they needed a Bill to dismantle criminal l...

Andy Slaughter | 576 cc118-121 (Link to this contribution)

Indeed, but the Lord Chancellor has at least managed to make both of them happy, and he should be...

Andy Slaughter | 576 c120 (Link to this contribution)

I am afraid that the Government have been playing catch-up ever since IPPs were abolished, but no...

Shailesh Vara | 576 cc120-2 (Link to this contribution)

May I start by thanking all Members, on both sides of the House, who have spoken today?

Karl Turner | 576 c122 (Link to this contribution)

If that is the Government’s intention, why does the Bill not say that?

Shailesh Vara | 576 c122 (Link to this contribution)

It does.

My hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon spoke about the age limit for jurors bein...

Julian Huppert | 576 c123 (Link to this contribution)

We heard earlier that such charges would be the lowest priority of claim. The Justice Secretary w...

Shailesh Vara | 576 c123 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend needs to appreciate that the time lag will be longer. This will be the last elemen...

Shailesh Vara | 576 c123 (Link to this contribution)

I will give way, but this must be the last intervention because I want to cover a number of point...

Kate Green | 576 c123 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. How does he think that the public will react to the...

Shailesh Vara | 576 cc123-4 (Link to this contribution)

There are institutions of a custodial nature in which the numbers of people are far more than tha...

Shailesh Vara | 576 cc124-6 (Link to this contribution)

I will not give way, as I want to make progress. I believe that I have been generous in taking a ...

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