UK Parliament / Open data

Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill

Debate on bills on Tuesday, 8 October 2013, in the House of Commons.
Report stage (first day). New clause 1 debated and withdrawn. New clause 4 negatived on division (224 to 292). New clause 7 debated and withdrawn. Schedules 1 and 2 and Clauses 4-7, 12 and 25, amendments made. Bill to be considered further tomorrow.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
568 cc70-130 
Session
2013-14
Legislative stage
Report stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Proceeding contributions
Bernard Jenkin | 568 c75 (Link to this contribution)

I should say at the outset that I do not intend to move new clause 1, although I want to take the...

Baroness Primarolo | 568 c75 (Link to this contribution)

Order. May I advise the hon. Gentleman that he needs to move his new clause so that we can debate...


Show all contributions (134)
Bernard Jenkin | 568 c75 (Link to this contribution)

I am rather appalled, Madam Deputy Speaker, that I have had to be pulled up on that procedural ma...

Bernard Jenkin | 568 c75 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Baroness Primarolo | 568 c75 (Link to this contribution)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Government amendment 28.

Am...

Bernard Jenkin | 568 cc75-7 (Link to this contribution)

I want to use this opportunity to draw the attention of the House to the report by the House of L...

John Redwood | 568 c76 (Link to this contribution)

It seems to me that the kernel of the problem is that this is a Bill to regulate lobbying. An imp...

Bernard Jenkin | 568 c76 (Link to this contribution)

I hear what my right hon. Friend says, but it is not generally asserted that, for example, corres...

Paul Flynn | 568 c76 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman will recall that in the previous Parliament there was concern about the way th...

Bernard Jenkin | 568 c76 (Link to this contribution)

I recognise the sentiment the hon. Gentleman expresses, and I share his outrage at any abuse that...

Cheryl Gillan | 568 c76 (Link to this contribution)

I am following my hon. Friend’s argument closely. Rather than my standing here in the railway int...

Bernard Jenkin | 568 c78 (Link to this contribution)

I wholly agree with my right hon. Friend. I just want to emphasise that the amendments I am speak...

John Redwood | 568 c78 (Link to this contribution)

Further to that exchange, does my hon. Friend not see my case, which is that if the Bill is in da...

Bernard Jenkin | 568 cc78-9 (Link to this contribution)

I will return to that matter, but when my right hon. Friend employs the word “privilege” in that ...

William Cash | 568 c79 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is reaching the nub of the issue. With something as delicate as article IX of the ...

Bernard Jenkin | 568 cc79-80 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend has, typically, put more pithily than I could a complex legal argument. By drawing...

Christopher Chope | 568 c80 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend and my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) tabled amendment 1, which is exa...

Bernard Jenkin | 568 cc80-1 (Link to this contribution)

I have moved new clause 1, but I shall wait to hear what the Minister says in response to the deb...

Gareth Thomas | 568 c81 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman has made an extremely interesting speech, which thus far has touched on issues...

Bernard Jenkin | 568 c81 (Link to this contribution)

I note the earlier debate on the guillotine. All I can say is thank God for the other place. The ...

Gareth Thomas | 568 c81 (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin), who made an e...

John Redwood | 568 c81 (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is very important that a shadow spokesman should be able to...

Gareth Thomas | 568 c82 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Gentleman and I do not agree on much, but we agree on that extremely valuable poin...

Lady Hermon | 568 c82 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for taking a second intervention so quickly. Will he add to h...

Gareth Thomas | 568 c82 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady makes a very good point and underlines the problems there would have been had the G...

Bernard Jenkin | 568 c82 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) has made an extremely valuable point. It shows how n...

Gareth Thomas | 568 c82 (Link to this contribution)

I agree with the hon. Gentleman, and I want to explain how those two paragraphs arrived in the Bi...

Paul Flynn | 568 c82 (Link to this contribution)

May I raise with my hon. Friend a question that he himself has raised? There is a difference betw...

Gareth Thomas | 568 cc82-3 (Link to this contribution)

If my hon. Friend, who is an expert on these questions, will bear with me, I will come later to s...

Mike Freer | 568 c83 (Link to this contribution)

At least eight or nine major charities are headquartered in my constituency. Does he believe that...

Gareth Thomas | 568 c83 (Link to this contribution)

I think that I did the hon. Gentleman an enormous service back in the 2005 general election, but ...

Cheryl Gillan | 568 c83 (Link to this contribution)

I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who has been very generous in giving way. I have taken ...

Gareth Thomas | 568 cc83-4 (Link to this contribution)

I commend the hon. Lady for her work with the National Autism Society, not least because it does ...

Lindsay Hoyle | 568 c84 (Link to this contribution)

May I say to the Leader of the House that I did not realise that Mr Cash wished to come in? I cal...

William Cash | 568 cc84-5 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry for inhibiting my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House for a short moment.

...

Bernard Jenkin | 568 c85 (Link to this contribution)

I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way at this point. He says “around the world”. It...

William Cash | 568 cc85-6 (Link to this contribution)

That is the very point I am seeking to make. I would also point out that a number of other countr...

Lindsay Hoyle | 568 c86 (Link to this contribution)

I need to say something, just to help you, because obviously I know that you want to discuss the ...

William Cash | 568 c86 (Link to this contribution)

Absolutely, Mr Deputy Speaker, and there is no wider arena than your remit. Having said that, thi...

Kevin Barron | 568 cc86-8 (Link to this contribution)

Tagged on to this debate is a report by the Committee on Standards and Privileges, which I chair,...

Graham Allen | 568 c88 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the Government and the Leader of the House and his team for paying attention to the repor...

Kevin Barron | 568 c88 (Link to this contribution)

On the two issues that we were concerned about, the Government have seen sense. This hasty piece ...

John Redwood | 568 cc88-9 (Link to this contribution)

A couple of Opposition Members have raised the issue of paid advocacy and I want to reassure anyo...

Cheryl Gillan | 568 c89 (Link to this contribution)

I do not wish to detain the House for long. I agree entirely with my right hon. Friend the Member...

Lord Lansley | 568 cc89-90 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to hon. Members for their contributions to this short debate, and particularly to m...

Lady Hermon | 568 cc90-1 (Link to this contribution)

I have listened carefully to the Leader of House’s explanation and am slightly concerned. Paragra...

Lord Lansley | 568 cc91-2 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex explained the matter well. A provision was ...

Bernard Jenkin | 568 c92 (Link to this contribution)

I am listening carefully to what the Leader of the House is saying. Of course, all this depends o...

Lord Lansley | 568 cc92-3 (Link to this contribution)

I understand that completely. If I have not explained my point fully, let me explain it again. Un...

Lady Hermon | 568 c93 (Link to this contribution)

I am most grateful to the Leader of the House for his very helpful explanation. Just to be sure, ...

Lord Lansley | 568 c93 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, I can give the hon. Lady that assurance. She would not be affected by the Bill as she would ...

Gareth Thomas | 568 c93 (Link to this contribution)

The Leader of the House has been at his most reasonable in the past few minutes, but he has not y...

Lord Lansley | 568 c93 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman knows from our previous conversation that we talked to the House authorities a...

Bernard Jenkin | 568 c94 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for being utterly clear about the intention of this Bill, w...

Gareth Thomas | 568 c94 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

7.45 pm

Lindsay Hoyle | 568 cc94-5 (Link to this contribution)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

New clause 6—Duty to report—

<...
Gareth Thomas | 568 cc95-7 (Link to this contribution)

Reasonable though the Leader of the House was about the previous set of amendments, he will have ...

Lady Hermon | 568 c98 (Link to this contribution)

The wording of new clause 4, to which the hon. Gentleman is speaking, is curious. It states:

<...
Gareth Thomas | 568 c98 (Link to this contribution)

Indeed not, although I do not see the hon. Lady’s concern about the wording. She will be aware of...

Lady Hermon | 568 c98 (Link to this contribution)

To clarify, is it the Opposition’s position in the new clause that some financial relations betwe...

Gareth Thomas | 568 c98 (Link to this contribution)

We are seeking to establish the principle that there should be a code of conduct dealing with the...

Lady Hermon | 568 c98 (Link to this contribution)

I am so sorry to be persistent, but I am even more confused than when I made my first interventio...

Gareth Thomas | 568 cc98-9 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady is right that it is very difficult to see how any direct financial relationship cou...

Anne Main | 568 c99 (Link to this contribution)

I have followed the debate with a great deal of interest. It seems to me that the additional safe...

Gareth Thomas | 568 c99 (Link to this contribution)

I say gently to the hon. Lady that I understand her frustration with the process, but we are tryi...

Anne Main | 568 c100 (Link to this contribution)

I have a degree of sympathy with what the hon. Gentleman is saying. Many of us have concerns abou...

Gareth Thomas | 568 cc100-1 (Link to this contribution)

I have to disagree with the hon. Lady. If we can get the rules for lobbyists right—or as right as...

Baroness Primarolo | 568 c101 (Link to this contribution)

I call Graham Allen; Ministers must wait.

Graham Allen | 568 c101 (Link to this contribution)

I am happy to give way to the right hon. Gentleman, even before I have said anything, if he wants...

Baroness Primarolo | 568 c101 (Link to this contribution)

You have the floor, Mr Allen. Please continue.

Graham Allen | 568 cc101-2 (Link to this contribution)

I am just trying to be helpful.

My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas) has g...

Lady Hermon | 568 c102 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene. I think it would be most helpfu...

Graham Allen | 568 c103 (Link to this contribution)

I would be pleased to do so. My Select Committee, composed of Members of all parties, pulled toge...

Simon Hughes | 568 c103 (Link to this contribution)

I have just observed that other members of the Joint Committee on Human Rights are not in the Cha...

Graham Allen | 568 c104 (Link to this contribution)

I think that if I am allowed to speak for long enough in replying to the right hon. Gentleman, th...

Graham Allen | 568 c104 (Link to this contribution)

Ah! The Chair of the Committee is present.

Hywel Francis | 568 c104 (Link to this contribution)

But not in my usual place.

My hon. Friend has made an important point. As he knows, tomorro...

Baroness Primarolo | 568 c104 (Link to this contribution)

Order. The amendment to which the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) is speaking relates...

Graham Allen | 568 c104 (Link to this contribution)

I am very sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker. Two experienced Members led me astray, and diverted me fro...

David Ward | 568 c104 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman seems to be saying that we are not where we would like to be, and that an oppo...

Baroness Primarolo | 568 c104 (Link to this contribution)

Order. The Members who are present this evening are indeed experienced, and the hon. Member for N...

Graham Allen | 568 cc105-6 (Link to this contribution)

I must ask Members to stop tempting me to stray, because I have some important points to make abo...

Hywel Francis | 568 c106 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is making an interesting and powerful point. Did his Select Committee consider the...

Graham Allen | 568 c106 (Link to this contribution)

Again, my hon. Friend is seeking to take advantage of my good nature. Madam Deputy Speaker gives ...

Graham Allen | 568 c106 (Link to this contribution)

I hope that the hon. Lady is not going to do something similar and get me into trouble.

Lady Hermon | 568 c106 (Link to this contribution)

I would never lead an hon. Member astray. The hon. Gentleman has raised a serious issue to do wit...

Graham Allen | 568 cc106-7 (Link to this contribution)

I do not want to incur the wrath of the Deputy Speaker, so I had better not say anything on claus...

Mark Durkan | 568 c107 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman rightly makes the point that if the topic on which the lobbying is taking plac...

Graham Allen | 568 cc107-8 (Link to this contribution)

That is why I think sorting out the information provided in the register is essential to this par...

Anne Main | 568 c108 (Link to this contribution)

As the hon. Gentleman will have realised from the last debate, I have great concerns about a spec...

Graham Allen | 568 c108 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady made a telling intervention about that in our last set of debates. I am sure she wi...

Kelvin Hopkins | 568 c108 (Link to this contribution)

I know what the hon. Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) is talking about, and she made an important ...

Graham Allen | 568 cc108-9 (Link to this contribution)

We need a dose of common sense here, so that the stuff in the public domain is not onerous for al...

Lord Lansley | 568 c109 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to colleagues for the two speeches on this group of amendments.

Let me start ...

Gareth Thomas | 568 c109 (Link to this contribution)

Will the Leader of the House give way?

Lord Lansley | 568 cc109-110 (Link to this contribution)

I was going to answer the point that the hon. Gentleman made earlier, so let me give him an examp...

Gareth Thomas | 568 c110 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Gentleman is now making a different point from that made by the hon. Member for No...

Lord Lansley | 568 c110 (Link to this contribution)

I do not agree. The consequence of large-scale statutory codes is considerable expenditure.

Simon Hughes | 568 c111 (Link to this contribution)

Like my right hon. Friend, I am keen that we do not have some great bureaucratic invention to dea...

Lord Lansley | 568 c111 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend, characteristically, makes a better point than those on the Opposition Front...

Simon Hughes | 568 c111 (Link to this contribution)

I completely understand that, and I commend the Government, as my right hon. Friend knows, for th...

Lord Lansley | 568 c111 (Link to this contribution)

We have already made a commitment that Ministers’ and permanent secretaries’ diaries for each qua...

Gareth Thomas | 568 c111 (Link to this contribution)

Is not the point about Ministers’ diaries that so few consultant lobbyists actually go to meet Mi...

Lord Lansley | 568 c111 (Link to this contribution)

That brings us to some of the other amendments. We are clear that the key decision makers are the...

Lord Lansley | 568 cc112-3 (Link to this contribution)

Let me make some progress, then I will give way again. There are quite a number of amendments in ...

Lady Hermon | 568 c113 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the Leader of the House for allowing me to intervene, even at this stage. Before...

Lord Lansley | 568 c113 (Link to this contribution)

The point I was making is that the register that the Bill establishes is not where meetings will ...

Mark Durkan | 568 c113 (Link to this contribution)

The Leader of the House has still not made any convincing case for why the register should not sp...

Lord Lansley | 568 c113 (Link to this contribution)

With respect, I do not think that the hon. Gentleman was listening to my previous answer. Consult...

Lady Hermon | 568 c114 (Link to this contribution)

Will the Leader of the House give way?

Lord Lansley | 568 cc114-5 (Link to this contribution)

No, I have answered that question.

Amendment 93, tabled by the Opposition, would remove cla...

Gareth Thomas | 568 cc115-6 (Link to this contribution)

We have had a very good debate on these amendments but, sadly, what has become clear is that when...

Baroness Primarolo | 568 c116 (Link to this contribution)

I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby.

Chi Onwurah | 568 c116 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Baroness Primarolo | 568 cc116-122 (Link to this contribution)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 68, in clause 2, page 2...

Chi Onwurah | 568 cc122-4 (Link to this contribution)

With your indulgence, Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to start by paying tribute to the hon. M...

Simon Hughes | 568 c124 (Link to this contribution)

I shall make just a brief point in support of my amendment 116, which would make a simple change ...

John Bercow | 568 c124 (Link to this contribution)

Has the right hon. Gentleman finished? He has. I thank him and call Mr Paul Flynn.

Paul Flynn | 568 cc124-6 (Link to this contribution)

It is a rare occasion when one feels that the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark ...

Peter Bone | 568 c125 (Link to this contribution)

I am listening with great interest to the hon. Gentleman, who is making a powerful speech, as usu...

Paul Flynn | 568 c127 (Link to this contribution)

I would not want to deny the hon. Gentleman—a possible future Deputy Speaker of the House—that pr...

Lord Lansley | 568 cc127-9 (Link to this contribution)

As has been demonstrated, the effect of new clause 7 and the other amendments proposed by the hon...

Chi Onwurah | 568 c129 (Link to this contribution)

Given this Government’s clear lack of understanding of lobbying activity, the new clause will not...

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