If I may, I will start where my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies)left off, and work in reverse order through this set of amendments, presented so ably a short while ago by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope). I am grateful, as ever, for the clarification of what might be termed the case for the defence, so ably made by my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman).
Starting with amendments 17, 18 and 19, I entirely agree that it is somewhat bizarre that the solution to a problem skip is to immobilise it, but I was persuaded by what my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East had to say on the matter. To be perfectly honest, I have never seen one of these devices, and I can only imagine what they must look like. I understand that they both immobilise and light up the skip at the same time, which seems an eminently sensible idea for dealing with a problem skip. I have always thought that even empty skips are particularly difficult to move, so I would not think that they needed much help to be immobilised, although I am prepared to accept that that may well be a solution in some cases.
I turn to the other easy one—amendment 11, which has sensibly been accepted by my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East and the promoters. That
demonstrates the sense and worth of the work done by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch in going through the Bill in some detail and tabling the amendments. The promoters have accepted that the correct period is 14 rather than three working days.
I turn to the slightly more contentious amendments. I looked at amendment 10 and thought it was merely a clarification. There would be no point in criminalising someone or causing them to commit an offence if the information was patently obvious from looking at the side of the skip, in accordance with clause 9. Apparently, the promoters think otherwise. Personally, I would support amendment 10.
We now move neatly into the debate about decriminalisation. We are not really decriminalising these things, just moving the responsibility for taking action from one authority, the police, to another authority, the local authority. The net result is the same. Anyone reading language such as “commits an offence” would think, “Crikey! They mean a criminal offence.” Apparently, however, the measure represents decriminalisation. I humbly suggest that if clause 8 had read, “A person on whom a requirement is imposed under this section shall be liable to a civil penalty,” that would have been more appropriate if the intention was to decriminalise.
I entirely agree with what my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley said about amendment 14. It is entirely right that when it comes to the liability of someone who has committed a skip offence, to use some shorthand—[Interruption.] Not a skipping offence, but a builder’s skip offence. When it comes to such a person’s liability, the inclusion of the words
“take any reasonable steps to”
is entirely sensible. Although it might look as though one of those specific offences was being committed, there could be a whole host of reasons why a person ought not to be held liable.
The issue of criminalisation is important when considering the question of proof. If the offences are to remain criminal, the burden of proof is “beyond all reasonable doubt”. However, if they are to be dealt with according to a civil burden of proof, “the balance of probabilities” applies—it could be 51:49. There is a whole host of difference between liability in criminal and civil cases. The matter needs to be nailed down. We need to be absolutely clear about whether we are decriminalising this. Is it going to be a criminal offence, or is it going to be a civil offence and is it going to be dealt with under the civil law? That will affect the burden of proof required of those who seek to enforce these requirements.
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Let me make it clear that I entirely agree that these are sensible laws to have. I remember a case from some years ago—the 1980s—when I was acting for someone who ran into a skip that was not lit. That does happen, and it is a serious matter. As my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch said, some of these amendments seek to strengthen the Bill, as, indeed, does amendment 15. I, too, found it somewhat ironic to hear an argument that we have often deployed, which is that the law in London should not be different from the law in the rest of the United Kingdom.
On amendment 15, I think it is sensible to have something other than just a telephone number or the address, because there is a danger that many skip operators will opt to have an address that might be a PO box or the registered office of a limited company which turns out to be a huge office block in London with hundreds of other offices, and which is in fact the office of an accountant or a lawyer, and not a place of work of the skip owner. I therefore think amendment 15 is entirely sensible. Although I appreciate what my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East said, it may well be an idea for a private Member’s Bill to at some point bring in on a national basis the requirement that all skips should bear the name, address and telephone number, so that if there is a problem, the person who is responsible for putting the skip there can easily be found.
On amendment 16 and the question of effectively making the accused, whether of a criminal offence or a civil liability, guilty unless they prove themselves innocent, I again entirely agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley that if amendment 14 were accepted, to give them that “get out of jail free card”—if one can describe it as that—by saying that if they had taken reasonable steps, they would not be liable, would negate this rather draconian step of saying, “Look, once we’ve served you with this notice, it is your responsibility to come up with some other person who is more guilty than you are.” It seems a very strange way of setting up a legal system, and it seems to me to be entirely alien to all the principles of English law. I can well see that at some future point there may be many a legal case fought over clause 9(8), as people say, “How can it be fair that I have been picked on? I have got nothing to do with this, yet I have been victimised and made to pay this penalty.”