I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. He puts the case far better than I could. His comments highlight why I wonder whether clause 2 is misguided. Our concerns about it may well be shown to be unjustified and my hon. Friend and the Minister shown to be right: everything carries on as before and all is fine and dandy. But it might also turn out that something goes wrong. We can argue the merits
of whether such measures should be introduced in the first place, but once they have been introduced it is a lot more difficult to get rid of them. In effect, it will put the Minister and my hon. Friend on tenterhooks for ever as they will basically be hoping that nothing ever goes wrong in future.
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If something goes wrong, even if it is not wholly linked to the provisions in the Bill, those provisions are where the blame will end up lying. I wonder whether that is a sensible position for the Government to take; do they want to put themselves in that situation for the benefits in clause 2, of which I am still not convinced? There are clearly benefits that the Government want to see, but we must ask whether they outweigh the risks, I am not entirely convinced from what I have read or from the information provided by those on both sides of the argument whether that is necessarily the right way to go.
My hon. Friend argues that there is protection in the clause through the CHA’s responsibility to ensure that only appropriately trained and qualified ships officers, other than master and first mate, will be awarded a pilotage exemption certificate. I am not convinced by that, to be perfectly honest, and I do not think that the hon. Gentleman is either. Statements of compliance are not always received. Investigations into port-related incidents recommend improvements to operations when they do not feel that the operation was up to scratch and there are examples of such recommendations being ignored or contested and of operational failures that contributed in some way to an accident that have not been put right. Given that we are in that situation now, people should be nervous about any move towards further deregulation, and we should only introduce such provisions if the evidence is overwhelming. I do not think there is that evidence.
During our debate on the previous Bill, I made it clear that the people who know best about such matters are often those who do and see the job every day of their lives. That was certainly the case when I worked for Asda. If I wanted to know what was going on in a store—what was going well and what was going badly—I would go to someone who worked in the store on the checkout, on the shop floor or filling the shelves, as they knew exactly what was going right and what was going wrong. They could see it with their own eyes and they also had people telling them everyday what was going right or wrong. It is very easy to stand in this House—I am as guilty of this as the next person—and say that we should deregulate when our safety is not at risk. Everybody knows that my natural instinct on all matters is deregulation rather than extra regulation, but I wonder whether we should be considering more than we have whether the Government and my hon. Friend want to get into this situation.
This might well be a step too far. My main concern is that it will undermine all the other good things in the Bill, of which my hon. Friend should be rightly proud. We are muddying the waters slightly with clause 2. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will press either this amendment or his other amendment to a Division. In fact, I hope for more than that—I hope that he does not have to do so. It would be much more helpful, given all the other good things in the Bill, if the Government
accepted them. Time is precious, and I am sure that we would all like the Bill to progress further today, rather than having to come back at a later date. The best way of ensuring that would be the Government’s giving some indication that they will consider the points that the hon. Gentleman and I raised and ascertain whether we can reach some agreement that satisfies everybody, does not detract from the rest of the Bill and allows it to make further progress. We have much ground still to cover on the amendments and Third Reading. Time presses, and it would be helpful if the Minister gave assurances that satisfied us so that we reach a point where the Bill can progress. If he does not, the danger is that the Bill will not progress today, and that would be sad for us all.