Public Service Pensions Bill

I will give way, although it is rather early in my speech. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman wants to ma...

I appreciate that the Government commissioned the Hutton report, but surely that report would not...

I shall deal with the good reasons why further reform is needed later in my speech.

Lord Hu...

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I give way to the former Secretary of State.

The Chief Secretary lays great stress on the Hutton report, so why did not the Chancellor wait un...

I did not mention Lord Hutton’s interim report, but I am happy to do so now for the benefit of th...

The Chief Secretary is a Scottish Member, so I presume that he is aware of negotiations north of ...

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. I will deal with this subject in detail later in my speech...

The Chief Secretary said that there was a fairness imbalance between employers, employees and the...

The hon. Gentleman will know that Royal Mail is a public corporation, and therefore not within th...

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Let me respond to one intervention before I take another. I know that the hon. Gentleman is keen ...

And the one before them.

Indeed. Perhaps schemes took holidays even under the Government before that one. In many cases, m...

In response to my hon. Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe), the Minister made it ...

No, there will not. Let me describe how this works. The negotiations that my ministerial colleagu...

One of the options open to the devolved Administrations was for their pension schemes to be inclu...

I am not aware of any technical reason why a time gap should occur, but I know that officials in ...

The Chief Secretary will be aware that several of the Bill’s provisions will affect Scottish pens...

I certainly will, when I come to it.

Lord Hutton’s first set of recommendations consisted o...

The Chief Secretary talks about a deal on pensions that will last over the long term. Lord Hutton...

The hon. Gentleman will know that Lord Hutton addressed that issue. The costs of such a transitio...

On the issue of fairness, does the Chief Secretary agree that private sector workers can only loo...

Yes, I agree. We need better pension provision across the work force. That is why I think the nat...

The comparison between private sector and public sector pension schemes is variable, as not all p...

We have taken great care to work with the TUC. We have taken it through the text of the Bill, lis...

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

I will make some progress and give way to the hon. Lady later.

I return to Lord Hutton’s fo...

Those of us on the Government Benches are quite often accused of reminding those on the Oppositio...

I agree with that, and I would add that, frankly, these reforms could have been made in the 1980s...

I am grateful to the Chief Secretary for giving way. Does he recognise that the Government have t...

I would say that we have handled this process in a balanced and sensitive way throughout, in reco...

The Chief Secretary talks about longevity, but what does he think the proposals will mean for the...

We will conduct a regular review, as Lord Hutton suggested, which will enable issues such as thos...

The Chief Secretary to the Treasury will be aware that there is a working longer review in the NH...

If I may, I will come to that issue in a moment. The arrangements for the NHS pension scheme have...

Will the Chief Secretary to the Treasury give way?

I will go on with my speech, if I may. I hope that I will be able to answer the hon. Gentleman’s ...

The Chief Secretary to the Treasury is emphasising the importance of clause 9 in facilitating fut...

The hon. Gentleman will know that the provisions in the clause to which he refers mirror directly...

With respect, intentions are one thing but the terms of the legislation are another. Is my readin...

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to say that the link between the state pension age a...

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I will give way one more time, then I must make some progress. There is a lot of detail to get th...

Clause 9(2) means that firefighters would not be able to retire with a pension until they were 60...

In that case, we followed the recommendations of Lord Hutton—and, indeed, previous practice. The ...

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I am going to make some progress, if I may.

The second and third tests of Lord Hutton were ...

I promise not to intervene on the Chief Secretary again, but I want to ask about the employer cos...

I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman is right in this instance. In fact, had the “cap and...

The Chief Secretary has just mentioned the Superannuation Act 1972 again. Does he accept that sec...

There are some technical areas in which that may be necessary, but in practice the adjustments th...

With advances in medical science meaning people are living longer and a pressing need to ensure t...

Do the hon. Lady’s comments mean that if she were the Minister, she would reverse that Government...

We have said that we support the shift from the retail prices index to the consumer prices index ...

My hon. Friend realises that the vast majority of public sector workers do not have massive gold-...

My hon. Friend is entirely right. The average public sector pension in payment is under £6,000 a ...

Does the hon. Lady not accept that the Government have made great strides in protecting low-paid ...

That is simply not true. There are 800,000 part-time public service workers earning less than £15...

As the hon. Lady is discussing the previous Labour Government’s reforms, will she say whether she...

If that was such a disastrous thing, why have this Government not reversed it or made any efforts...

There are times when the hon. Lady seems to be making a coherent argument and then she goes back ...

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman has read the Bill. The RPI to CPI change was imposed before it,...

My hon. Friend makes an important point. Many of my constituents contact me about the impact on p...

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. We argued exactly the same point when the Government...

Does my hon. Friend recognise that one of the reasons why that notice period is required is becau...

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. We also believe that this Bill should not pre-empt ...

Does the hon. Lady accept that in the 10 years since the previous Prime Minister decided to get r...

I look forward to the hon. Lady’s private Member’s Bill to restore that relief. The real crisis i...

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I shall take another intervention so that we can hear about the hon. Lady’s private Member’s Bill...

How on earth does the hon. Lady think that anyone can put right £100 billion wiped off the value ...

It could be reversed so that dividends were not treated in such a way in the future, but the Gove...

My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the pathetic performance of private sector schemes. ...

Automatic enrolment could bring into saving for retirement 10 million people who are currently no...

I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves). She would have been better...

The hon. Gentleman mentioned the 1997 Budget. First, what does he think was the impact of the the...

The whole basis of the decision was the argument that the stock market was rising and so the tax ...

The Bill and, perhaps more significantly, the delegated legislation that will follow it, will und...

Does the hon. Lady share my particular concern about firefighters whose retirement age will be ex...

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I referred earlier to clause 9(2), whi...

Will the hon. Lady give way?

I was about to conclude, but I am happy to take an intervention.

In actual fact, the Audit Commission report on the local government pension scheme, which

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My understanding is that there will be a review of the scheme. Having spoken to some of those who...

May I advise my hon. Friend of a successful local government pension scheme, namely the Greater M...

I am interested in the scheme to which my hon. Friend refers, and I might get more information ab...

It is worth putting on record that under the deal negotiated by the Labour Government, if there w...

I listened carefully to the hon. Member for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer) and I can say...

I do not agree with the conclusions of the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) ...

In 1862?

Yes, it was shortly after the Municipal Reform Act.

The scheme is important for its members...

Given his long experience of local government, does the hon. Gentleman have any idea how many cou...

I certainly never took any pension contribution holidays. Indeed, I only became a member of the l...

Will the hon. Gentleman discuss with the chief executive of the LPFA his opinion of clause 16, wh...

I certainly agree that the impacts of crystallisation have to be considered carefully. It is wort...

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct in saying that there is some element of protection for f...

We need to look with care at the evidence, but that does not mean that we should keep the current...

My hon. Friend speaks with considerable authority on the firefighters’ situation, but is he as su...

I take on board my hon. Friend’s point, and we must be realistic in all areas of this discussion....

I am grateful for the informed contribution from a former Minister. Does he acknowledge that, bes...

When I was a Minister, it was precisely for that reason that I included in the agreement a provis...

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Order. May I gently inform the House that no time limit for speeches has been imposed in this deb...

I will try to keep my remarks to the point, Madam Deputy Speaker, and enable other Members to get...

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for going through the detail as she understands it. The Bill will ...

I certainly agree that it is important that we get a fair and equitable solution in the local gov...

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Order. I am going to put a time limit on speeches now. It will be 12 minutes from the next speake...

I shall try to keep within the 12 minutes: it is my intention to make only a short contribution.<...

Does the hon. Gentleman regret the way in which the Government have pitted public sector pensions...

The hon. Lady’s final sentence illustrates her prejudice against the Government’s intentions. Thi...

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bristol West (Stephen Williams), who made a very b...

I will try to keep my comments as brief as possible. I want to address some of the remarks that I...

I agree with the hon. Gentleman about workers in the private sector who should also have better a...

There is of course a wider problem. When I bring forward that Bill, which the hon. Gentleman will...

It is ironic that we are discussing pensions today, given that much of what we have seen in the p...

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, before that decision was made, the Chief Secretary to the Treas...

I am pleased that the hon. Lady has come into the debate. I am not sure whether she was here when...

I am pleased that Labour Members have acknowledged the need for the Bill and the need to reform o...

I am listening to my hon. Friend’s speech with great interest. We have already heard a lot about ...

I completely agree with my hon. Friend. It is important that we bite the bullet now and lay the f...

I understand that the public schemes are generally generous in comparison with those in the priva...

My hon. Friend makes a good point. We will benefit from an examination of the individual schemes ...

Let me begin by declaring an interest. For 20 years I was a member of the mineworkers pension sch...

Why didn’t you do something about it?

Actually, we did do something about it in 2001.

Just think what ordinary postmen and postwo...

I was rather delighted by the Bill. I think it is an unmitigated good news story, so it is rather...

One misleading aspect of the pensions contribution debate is the claim that people earning under ...

I think what the hon. Lady is saying is that somebody who would be on, perhaps, £60,000 a year bu...

I am thinking of nurses or teachers, whose salaries would be more in the average earnings categor...

That is a rather extraordinary point. Public sector pensions will be paid and calculated on the b...

The hon. Lady will know that in the past—I believe this was in the Pensions Act 2011—people were ...

The hon. Gentleman will recall that the Government made great efforts to ensure that the cliff ed...

There is something extraordinary in what the hon. Lady has just said, which several of her collea...

The hon. Lady makes an extremely good point. I am not advocating that we reduce public sector pen...

On that point about overall fairness and sustainability, does my hon. Friend believe that the Gov...

Of course, my hon. Friend is quite right: we could have gone much further. Across Europe, public ...

I declare an interest as a member of a local government pension scheme.

Let me put it clear...

One issue is the fact that the cost that will fall not during this Parliament but on future taxpa...

Let me quote the Treasury, which has said that the cost of the unfunded public sector schemes—I a...

I do not want to let this point go—the hon. Gentleman’s claim that somehow Baroness Thatcher brok...

Under legislation promoted by Thatcher, the House in 1981 broke the link. That undermined in the ...

Will the hon. Gentleman allow me to refute that? For the first two years of the Thatcher period, ...

There was always a link with earnings or inflation, and pensions went up accordingly. Why did the...

rose—

Let me press on with the points that I am making.

What the Government are now doing is exac...

I apologise for interrupting the flow of the debate, Mr Deputy Speaker, but I need to raise an im...

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. I have not been notified that any Minister wis...

Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. On a serious matter such as this where a Minis...

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his point of order, which I am sure those on the Treasury Bench wi...

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for calling me to speak in this long and important debate on pensio...

The hon. Gentleman says that we should all stand together to defend ongoing defined-benefit schem...

I have no idea whether the word “guarantee” is in the Bill. In life, only two things are guarante...

The hon. Gentleman said a moment ago that the total risk of the schemes was borne by the taxpayer...

The right hon. Gentleman makes half a good point. I know local government pension schemes very we...

rose—

Order. The winding-up speeches will begin at 9.30 pm.

9.10 pm

I have a feeling that an instruction has gone out to those speaking in support of the Government,...

In the limited time available, I wish to highlight a particular concern. The Chief Secretary’s co...

This has been a thorough debate, and I welcome the contributions made by Members from both sides ...

Earlier, in response to an intervention that I made, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury tried to...

What a splendid idea. If that were the Minister’s purpose, I agree that there would be no reason ...

I thank Members for the lively debate that we have had this evening. In the short time that I hav...

Will the Minister give way?

I will in a moment.

Because of their long-term nature, pension reforms will not save money ...

My hon. Friend talks of savings for the taxpayer. Will he admit that this was a golden opportunit...

My hon. Friend raised the same issue in his speech. I think it fair to say that that would have i...

Will the Minister give way?

I will give way to the hon. Lady in a moment. If I remember correctly, she said in her speech tha...

The Minister must listen to debates. What I said was that not a single trade union supports this ...

As I said, unions representing two thirds of union members have accepted our proposed schemes, an...

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I give way to the hon. Lady.

I thank the Minister for giving way. I want to take him back to what he said previously. As usual...

I was expecting a lot more than that from the hon. Lady. I am proud that this Government have alr...

The Minister spoke warmly about his father and trade unions. Which trade unions support this Bill...

Since we received the first interim report from Lord Hutton, we have been in negotiations with tr...

I take the Minister back to the point he made a moment ago. Will he concede that most people who ...

The hon. Lady makes a fair point, which is why in many of the schemes, particularly those where t...

Will the Minister give way?

I am afraid I do not have time.

In conclusion, we believe that the changes we have made are...