Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. Lords report stage fourth day.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
736 c277-376
Session
2010-12
Legislative stage
Report stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. As amended in committee.
Wednesday, 15 February 2012
Bills
House of Lords
Wednesday, 15 February 2012
Bills
House of Lords
Legislative scrutiny: Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. Human Rights Joint Select Committee twenty-second report with formal minutes and written evidence.
Tuesday, 13 December 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
House of Commons
Tuesday, 13 December 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
House of Commons
Constitution Select Committee (HL) twenty-first report on Part 1 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill.
Wednesday, 16 November 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Wednesday, 16 November 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Wigley | 736 c280-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall speak briefly in support of Amendment 119, moved so persuasively by the noble Baro...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 736 c279-80 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I started in a Suffolk solicitor's office in the late 1950s. As was common then and now, a...
Show all contributions (151)
Lord Roberts of Llandudno | 736 c281 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I join in supporting the amendment. In recent debates we have spoken about Jobcentre Plus ...
Bishop of Chichester | 736 c281 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I, too, support the amendment. Quite a number of people find it quite hard to find their o...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 736 c281-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, perhaps I may intervene briefly once again in these debates, in complete support of the po...
Baroness Grey-Thompson | 736 c278-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the amendment is also in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Bach, Lord Newton of Braintree...
Baroness Grey-Thompson | 736 c278 (Link to this contribution)
119: Clause 26, page 21, line 11, leave out subsection (2) and insert—
““( ) Notwithstanding subsect...
Lord McNally | 736 c292 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, with the implicit trust that the House has in me—I am glad to see the noble Lord, Lord Bac...
Lord McNally | 736 c292 (Link to this contribution)
124: Schedule 4, page 164, line 4, at end insert ““(subject to regulations under sub-paragraph (2))”...
Lord McNally | 736 c292 (Link to this contribution)
120: Schedule 3, page 157, line 43, leave out ““for”” and insert ““to””
121: Schedule 3, page 158,...
Lord McNally | 736 c292 (Link to this contribution)
123: Schedule 4, page 164, line 4, leave out ““1”” and insert ““37(1)””
Lord McNally | 736 c288 (Link to this contribution)
I am very grateful that my eloquence has won the noble Lord over. I would ask the House to consider ...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 736 c288 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the noble Lord. His speech opened the gateway, for which I am grateful, to the face-to-face,...
Lord McNally | 736 c293 (Link to this contribution)
128: Clause 40, page 28, line 28, leave out ““subject to subsection (6)”” and insert ““unless it is ...
Lord McNally | 736 c292-3 (Link to this contribution)
126: Clause 38, page 28, line 2, at end insert—
““(2) Where the Lord Chancellor considers it appropr...
Lord McNally | 736 c293 (Link to this contribution)
127: Clause 40, page 28, line 11, leave out ““specified period”” and insert ““period specified or de...
Lord Quirk | 736 c282-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I very much support the amendment. As the noble Lord, Lord Newton, reminded us, communicat...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 736 c283 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I will take very little time. I am very concerned about the situation, for all the reasons...
Lord Bach | 736 c283-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am proud to be associated with the amendment in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Gr...
Lord McNally | 736 c284-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in case my colleagues on the Liberal Democrat Benches missed it, that was a subtle attempt...
Lord Pannick | 736 c282 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I added my name to the amendment and I did so for a very simple reason: this amendment is ...
Earl of Listowel | 736 c282 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, coming late to this debate, I regret that I may have missed some of its complexities, but ...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 736 c286 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I acknowledge that point. I would also like to acknowledge that I inadvertently misquoted ...
Lord McNally | 736 c286-7 (Link to this contribution)
That is what I call a second bite of the cherry on Report. However, I was in fact about to clarify, ...
Earl of Listowel | 736 c288 (Link to this contribution)
Before the noble Lord sits down, I thank him for clarifying the guidance to those who will take thes...
Lord McNally | 736 c288 (Link to this contribution)
I would certainly consider that. As so often with suggestions from the noble Earl, that is well wort...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c305 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to my noble friend. Debate on his amendment might allow a better exploration of the im...
Lord Beecham | 736 c305-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, that exchange was quite useful because it illustrated the argument against what the noble ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c305 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this may not be quite what the noble Lord was thinking about, but in some cases, as my nob...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 736 c305 (Link to this contribution)
I hope my noble and learned friend will forgive me for mentioning that I have tabled an amendment de...
Lord Avebury | 736 c312-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Alton, on the effectiveness and the tenacity with whic...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 736 c315 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as another co-signatory to the letter to which the noble Lord, Lord Alton, referred, I end...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 736 c309 (Link to this contribution)
132AA: Before Clause 43, insert the following new Clause—
““Exception in respiratory (industrial dis...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 736 c309-12 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in speaking to Amendment 132AA, I shall speak also to Amendments 136, 141 and 142, which r...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 736 c318 (Link to this contribution)
I am very happy to do that. I will speak to it further in due course. Frankly, I am anxious not to m...
Lord Bach | 736 c318 (Link to this contribution)
I must be under a misapprehension. I thought that this group was about the amendments that the noble...
Lord McNally | 736 c294 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the amendment deals with matters on which I have written to colleagues; the letter is in t...
Lord McNally | 736 c294 (Link to this contribution)
129: Clause 40, page 28, line 34, at end insert—
““( ) regulations under section 10(1)(b), other tha...
Lord McNally | 736 c294 (Link to this contribution)
131: Clause 40, page 28, line 41, at end insert—
““( ) regulations under section 38 that amend or re...
Lord Beecham | 736 c295 (Link to this contribution)
132A: Before Clause 43, insert the following new Clause—
““Qualified one-way cost-shifting and uplif...
Lord Beecham | 736 c295-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, once again I declare an interest as a non-paid consultant of a firm of solicitors in which...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 736 c298-300 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, conditional fee agreements—no-win no-fee arrangements—were first permitted by the legislat...
Lord Faulks | 736 c300 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I should like briefly to add to what the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, has said. I entirely end...
Baroness Kingsmill | 736 c300-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I should like to speak to the amendments in my name. I am encouraged to do so because, as ...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 736 c301 (Link to this contribution)
What is the justification for the costs-shifting system in the case where a person has been able to ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c302-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we have, as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, indicated, moved on to Part 2, but I open by say...
Lord Ramsbotham | 736 c305 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, before the noble and learned Lord sits down, perhaps I may ask whether he has considered t...
Lord Judd | 736 c338 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I strongly support and endorse this amendment. We have been reminded that a number of very...
Baroness Coussins | 736 c336-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, In moving Amendment 132AC, which was added as a manuscript amendment this morning, I shall...
Baroness Coussins | 736 c336 (Link to this contribution)
132ACBefore Clause 43, insert the following new Clause—
““Exception for international human rights c...
Lord Bach | 736 c334 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I beg to move.
Division on Amendment 132AB
Contents 168; Not-Contents 163.
Amendment 13...
Lord Bach | 736 c333 (Link to this contribution)
132AB: Before Clause 43, insert the following new Clause—
““Exception for industrial disease cases
T...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 736 c330-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for the way in which he has addressed this issue this evenin...
Lord McNally | 736 c326-30 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I should first say to the noble Lord, Lord Newton, that if he is thinking of joining the L...
Lord Brennan | 736 c339-41 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the arrival of globalisation as a world economic and human phenomenon, we hope, brings mor...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 736 c338-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have put my name to Amendment 134 in the belief that the Government are quite right, in ...
Bishop of Newcastle | 736 c339 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I too support this amendment, which I think is really important. It is about the impact th...
Lord Faulks | 736 c322-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I agree with every speaker that this is a dreadful disease for which the sufferers deserve...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 736 c321-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, may I briefly split up the Cross-Benchers, albeit in support of everything that they and m...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 736 c323-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, obviously, the people who fall into this category should have our sincere sympathy. I cert...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 736 c323 (Link to this contribution)
I support the comments made by my noble friend Lord Walton of Detchant. As a doctor, I look after th...
Lord Walton of Detchant | 736 c318-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Alton. I do so as a doctor. I was ...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 736 c318 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I would draw the noble Lord's attention to the actual words in the amendment and indeed in...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 736 c319 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I apologise for not being present at the beginning of this debate. My name is on the lette...
Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 736 c325 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, it is possible to describe other types of illness and the basis for claims in very much th...
Lord Bach | 736 c325-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we have had a powerful and emotive debate and I want to be very brief because the House wa...
Lord McNally | 736 c343-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, said that making this exception would not ““gut”” the B...
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara | 736 c341-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank those noble Lords who have spoken in this debate, in particular the noble Baroness...
Lord McNally | 736 c345 (Link to this contribution)
I will certainly take note of that. I realise the experience of the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, in the...
Lord Brennan | 736 c345 (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord is most gracious to give way. The points I was making were illustrated with cases. My...
Lord McNally | 736 c345 (Link to this contribution)
I am sorry, the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins. I am happy to re-engage between now and Third Reading...
Lord Judd | 736 c345 (Link to this contribution)
So the earth is flat.
Baroness Coussins | 736 c346 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate and I appreciate everyone's su...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 736 c346 (Link to this contribution)
132B: Clause 43, page 30, line 10, after ““are”” insert ““, subject to subsection 4C,””
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 736 c346-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this group of amendments sets out the refinements to the architecture of the Bill that I h...
Lord Beecham | 736 c349 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thought the party of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, was a party of conscience and reform. ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c349-52 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his amendments. It will come as no surprise to the House if I ...
Lord McNally | 736 c345 (Link to this contribution)
I am sorry, but I am not going to take questions. We are hard-pressed for time. I have offered to re...
Lord Bach | 736 c363 (Link to this contribution)
I think we can almost see the response now.
Lord McNally | 736 c362-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we have reached the stage of the evening when the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, not only asks ...
Lord Beecham | 736 c363 (Link to this contribution)
With my customary reluctance, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment 136A withdrawn.
Ame...
Lord McNally | 736 c363 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 139C, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, seeks to amend Clause 45 to require the...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 736 c363-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this amendment is concerned with one aspect of clinical negligence cases: the cost of expe...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 736 c363 (Link to this contribution)
137: Clause 45, page 31, line 38, leave out from ““policy”” to end of line 33 on page 32
Lord McNally | 736 c365-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, if there has been any discourtesy to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, I absolutely ...
Lord Beecham | 736 c365 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I strongly support the noble and learned Lord's amendment, which makes every conceivable s...
Lord Beecham | 736 c366 (Link to this contribution)
139: Clause 45, page 31, line 39, at end insert ““, (2A) or (2B)””
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 736 c366 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am afraid that I do not find the answer satisfactory. I will withdraw the amendment, of ...
Lord Beecham | 736 c359 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this amendment effectively deals with the position in which public authorities are the def...
Lord McNally | 736 c360 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the government amendments in this group are minor and technical and will ensure that chang...
Lord McNally | 736 c360 (Link to this contribution)
135A: Clause 43, page 30, line 30, leave out from ““not”” to end of line 32 and insert ““prevent a c...
Lord Beecham | 736 c360 (Link to this contribution)
I decline the request to agree with the Minister. There is little incentive for the Government as a ...
Lord McNally | 736 c360 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I hope that my reply to the previous debate has shown our gritty determination to keep to ...
Lord Beecham | 736 c361-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendment 136A is in another group of amendments that seek to modify the Government's stan...
Lord Beecham | 736 c361 (Link to this contribution)
136A: Clause 43, page 30, line 32, at end insert—
““( ) The amendments made by subsections (2) and (...
Lord McNally | 736 c361 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am sorely tempted to show that after months of total immersion in the Bill I can leap to...
Lord Pannick | 736 c362 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am sure the Minister will tell us again that the general regime for success fees and ““a...
Lord McNally | 736 c358 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the Government accept that insolvency proceedings are untypical of our reforms to CFAs in ...
Lord Bach | 736 c357-8 (Link to this contribution)
I am happy to put my name to this amendment with the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford. I cannot t...
Lord McNally | 736 c358 (Link to this contribution)
As the noble Lord will know, the interests of the taxpayer and the Government are synonymous, becaus...
Lord Bach | 736 c358 (Link to this contribution)
I am sorry to interrupt, but it is not so much that this is good for the Government—it is good for t...
Lord Beecham | 736 c359 (Link to this contribution)
133CA: Clause 43, page 30, line 25, after ““proceedings”” insert ““, other than proceedings of a typ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 736 c359 (Link to this contribution)
I am very much enlightened by my noble friend's formulation. The noble Lord, Lord Bach, made a very ...
Lord Bach | 736 c358 (Link to this contribution)
Which one is working for whom?
Lord McNally | 736 c359 (Link to this contribution)
I am trying to work out the vaguest reply that I can give to that. Discussions are going on and, as ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 736 c359 (Link to this contribution)
Can my noble friend tell us when these proposals will be finalised and whether it will be during the...
Lord Martin of Springburn | 736 c353-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am pleased to move this amendment. I understand that the night is getting on and we have...
Lord Martin of Springburn | 736 c353 (Link to this contribution)
133: Clause 43, page 30, line 24, leave out subsection (4)
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 736 c352-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am not so much disappointed as hurt by my noble and learned friend's reply. I am hurt th...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 736 c357 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I return to a subject which we addressed in Committee: proceedings brought by a liquidator...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 736 c356-7 (Link to this contribution)
133A: Clause 43, page 30, line 24, at end insert—
““( ) In section 58A of that Act, after subsection...
Lord Martin of Springburn | 736 c356 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am very pleased that the noble Lord has said that he hopes to bring in a defamation Bill...
Lord McNally | 736 c356 (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord has come to my aid, because I think these cases are still going on, and I had better ...
Lord McNally | 736 c355 (Link to this contribution)
Did the noble Lord, Lord Martin, say ““crabby””? My goodness; I have always been thought of as a lit...
Lord Beecham | 736 c355 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in fairness to the Government, they did not do what the noble Lord, Lord Martin, suggested...
Lord Martin of Springburn | 736 c374 (Link to this contribution)
I know it is late in the evening and I thank the noble Baroness, but I am sure she would agree that ...
Baroness Deech | 736 c374-5 (Link to this contribution)
I am sure that the noble Lord is right, but what I am objecting to is the exchange of money. If you ...
Lord McNally | 736 c375-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I think that there is broad agreement across the House about the need to ban referral fees...
Lord Martin of Springburn | 736 c373-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I wish to speak to Amendment 146 in my name. In doing so, I declare an interest as I have ...
Lord Beecham | 736 c371 (Link to this contribution)
142E: Clause 54, page 39, line 24, at end insert—
““( ) A regulated person is not in breach of this ...
Lord Beecham | 736 c372-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this amendment deals with referral fees. The Bill provides rules against referral fees and...
Lord McNally | 736 c370-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Martin, who talked about the proper role of the House ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 736 c371 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. I am glad that some publicity has been give to this prac...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 736 c369-70 (Link to this contribution)
This amendment concerns the third party insurance company, which approaches a prospective claimant a...
Lord Bach | 736 c370 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister would be well advised to give serious consideration to the amendment proposed by the no...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 736 c369 (Link to this contribution)
On this occasion I am grateful to my noble friend for his reply. My purpose was to highlight the ins...
Baroness Deech | 736 c374 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I declare an interest as chair of the Bar Standards Board, which regulates barristers and ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 736 c368 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the amendment raises the issue of third party litigation funding. I made a lengthy contrib...
Lord McNally | 736 c368-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have said before that we are grateful to my noble friend for raising this issue. It is a...
Lord McNally | 736 c367 (Link to this contribution)
141A: Clause 46, page 32, line 44, leave out ““party to proceedings”” and insert ““person””
Lord McNally | 736 c367 (Link to this contribution)
Amendments 141A to 141C relate to the self-insurance element where a body undertakes to meet a membe...
Lord McNally | 736 c367 (Link to this contribution)
141B: Clause 46, page 32, line 45, leave out from beginning to ““before””
141C: Clause 46, page 32...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 736 c368 (Link to this contribution)
142C: After Clause 53, insert the following new Clause—
““Third party litigation funding
(1) A third...
Lord Beecham | 736 c366 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we return briefly to the question of environmental cases which we also discussed under the...
Lord McNally | 736 c366-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendments 139 and 140 seek to allow the continued recoverability of ATE insurance premium...
Lord Beecham | 736 c367 (Link to this contribution)
I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment 139 withdrawn.
Amendments 139A to 141ZC not moved...
Lord Wigley | 736 c319-21 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support Amendment 132AA and wish to speak to the group which is associated with it, stan...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 736 c324-5 (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I may put two points to the noble and learned Lord before he sits down. The system as it ope...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 736 c369 (Link to this contribution)
142D: After Clause 53, insert the following new Clause—
““Third party offers to settle
It shall be a...
Lord Bach | 736 c368 (Link to this contribution)
We agree with the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford.
Baroness Grey-Thompson | 736 c288-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response and I recognise that there has been much positive mo...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 736 c315-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I add my tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, for his 50-years' celebration of Orpingt...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 736 c339 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, my name is not on this amendment but, having listened to the arguments, there seems to be ...
Lord Bach | 736 c360-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am not getting to my feet just to be difficult. When the Minister moves government amend...
Lord McNally | 736 c358 (Link to this contribution)
It is far too late in the evening for such repartee. As I say, we have reached agreement across gove...
Lord Beecham | 736 c376 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I will be withdrawing my amendment. I must disabuse the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, with w...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 736 c373 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in speaking to Amendments 146A and 148A, I wish to say how strongly I support in principle...
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