UK Parliament / Open data

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate on bills on Monday, 23 January 2012, in the House of Lords. The answering member was Lord Freud.

Welfare Reform Bill. Lords report stage fifth day.

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

734 c803-67, 883-916

Session

2010-12

Legislative stage

Report stage

Procedure

Government defeats
New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Welfare Reform Bill. As amended in Grand Committee.
Monday, 28 November 2011
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Baroness Donaghy | 734 c803 (Link to this contribution) 58C: Clause 94, page 63, line 22, at end insert ““except for industrial injuries benefit awards””

Baroness Turner of Camden | 734 c804-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support my noble friend in her amendment, and also urge that industrial injuries disable...

Show all contributions (135)

Lord Wigley | 734 c805 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise briefly to speak in support of the amendment. I do so against the background of the...

Lord Wigley | 734 c814 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in Committee when we addressed this question, there was a suggestion that as many as 200,0...

Lord Hamilton of Epsom | 734 c813-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I find it remarkable that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, says that the Labour Party in pri...

Bishop of Chichester | 734 c814 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, for responding to the point made b...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c808 (Link to this contribution) 58D: Clause 94, page 63, line 22, at end insert— ““( ) Regulations under this section must provide f...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c808-11 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it seems that we are all, Lib Dems, Conservatives and ourselves, in favour of a benefit ca...

Lord Best | 734 c811-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment. As we have heard, it would mean that families facing immediate ho...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c805-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment, moved so ably by my noble friend Lady Donaghy, goes to the heart of fairne...

Lord Freud | 734 c806-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before I speak to the specific amendment, I would like to make some general points about t...

Baroness Donaghy | 734 c808 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reply. I was beginning to think that he had moved straight to the big ...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 734 c821 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I say bluntly that I came here uncertain as to which way I should vote on this amendment t...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 734 c820-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will be very brief, but I cannot resist the effrontery of trying to challenge some of th...

Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon | 734 c819-20 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I feel that this debate is probably drawing to a close, and I want to address particularly...

Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 734 c820 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, may I ask the Minister a couple of questions, as a member of the Joint Committee on Human ...

Lord Fowler | 734 c817-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is not my habit to trample on the territory of my Conservative social security successo...

Lord Newton of Braintree | 734 c818-9 (Link to this contribution) Irresistibly, in view of what my noble friend Lord Fowler has said, I find it necessary to make what...

Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 734 c816 (Link to this contribution) I intend to support the Government on the amendment, because I really think that the situation is qu...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 734 c816-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there is nothing inherently immoral or unjust in the concept of a cap. It all depends upon...

Lord Winston | 734 c814-5 (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to intervene in this short debate, but I have just heard something that I feel is...

Baroness Walmsley | 734 c815-6 (Link to this contribution) Like many of those who have spoken, I support the principle of the cap, and I think that public opin...

Lord Freud | 734 c826-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will deal with that straightaway because it is a point that has been raised more general...

Lord Empey | 734 c821-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have to be honest with ourselves in this House. There is no way that you can reform wel...

Countess of Mar | 734 c822 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord but he appears to be making a Second Reading speech...

Lord Empey | 734 c822 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Countess for the intervention, but because of the grouping I had thought...

Baroness Hussein-Ece | 734 c822-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I also came to the Chamber intending not to speak but to listen carefully to the arguments...

Baroness Garden of Frognal | 734 c824 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for interrupting my noble friend, but I think that she is trespassing again on a Second ...

Baroness Hussein-Ece | 734 c824 (Link to this contribution) I apologise. Although we have heard the assurances that there will be transitional arrangements, I h...

Lord German | 734 c824-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I start by making it clear that the concerns that have been expressed from these Benches a...

Lord Freud | 734 c826 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, closed his remarks on Amendment 58D by saying that it is de...

Countess of Mar | 734 c826 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I gather that there are now more than 3 million people unemployed. Something like 72 peopl...

Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon | 734 c827 (Link to this contribution) I have listened to the Minister very carefully. I take it from his answer earlier on—he will forgive...

Lord Freud | 734 c827-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was going to come on to what we were proposing with regard to temporary accommodation. T...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c828-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should like to thank everyone who has participated in this very extensive debate. Given ...

Bishop of Ripon and Leeds | 734 c833 (Link to this contribution) 59: Clause 94, page 63, line 25, after ““benefits”” insert ““with the exclusion of child benefit””

Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 734 c828 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry that the Minister thinks that this is a wrecking amendment. I thought that it was an amen...

Lord Freud | 734 c828 (Link to this contribution) We have looked at the human rights issues, putting particular emphasis on households with children a...

Bishop of Ripon and Leeds | 734 c834-5 (Link to this contribution) Thank you very much. The answer to that question is £113 million, which is a minute proportion of th...

Baroness Sherlock | 734 c835-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I speak in support of this amendment, to which my name is attached. I am grateful to the r...

Bishop of Ripon and Leeds | 734 c833 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment 59 would allow families whose benefits have been capped to retain child benefit....

Lord Mawhinney | 734 c833 (Link to this contribution) I and perhaps others in your Lordships' House would find it helpful if the right reverend Prelate wo...

Baroness Whitaker | 734 c845-6 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for interrupting the noble Baroness, but she used the term ““broken society”” and said “...

Baroness Wheatcroft | 734 c845 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I did not join your Lordships' House in order to kick the underprivileged, particularly ch...

Baroness Wheatcroft | 734 c846 (Link to this contribution) I would refer only to the recent riots as evidence of a society that was not entirely at ease with i...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 734 c842-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is a very important subject and this is the most important amendment as it seeks to d...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 734 c841-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I totally understand why the Government require it to be said that not everyone should get...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 734 c845 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, asked questions about the morality of the current situation...

Baroness Corston | 734 c844-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I want to speak briefly about child benefit. I was very proud of the fact that in 1977 the...

Baroness Meacher | 734 c841 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I had not planned to speak in this debate, but the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, put...

Lord Greaves | 734 c839-41 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have not spoken in the Welfare Reform Bill debates so far and I will be brief now. On th...

Lord Freud | 734 c852 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds made the point that the job of a ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c851-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is an important amendment that we can wholeheartedly support. I pay tribute to the ri...

Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 734 c850-1 (Link to this contribution) This will be not a Second Reading speech but a Second Reading remark, I hope said quickly enough to ...

Bishop of Chichester | 734 c849-50 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was very tempted to intervene in the middle of what the noble Lord, Lord Newton, was say...

Lord Newton of Braintree | 734 c849 (Link to this contribution) The issue is at what level the benefit cap should be set, and whether to set a different level that ...

Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon | 734 c849 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Lord for making the point. Indeed, he deserves all the credit for ch...

Lord Greaves | 734 c848 (Link to this contribution) Does my noble friend accept that the logic of what he is saying is that child benefit should be abol...

Lord Newton of Braintree | 734 c848 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I had not intended to speak again, having had my say earlier, and will not repeat what I s...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 734 c846-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I also had not intended to speak in this debate, but I have just been reminded that we are...

Baroness Flather | 734 c859-61 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is a very strange juxtaposition of amendments, because your Lordships have just had y...

Baroness Flather | 734 c859 (Link to this contribution) 59A: Clause 94, page 63, line 41, at end insert— ““(ea) make provision so that, prior to the applica...

Baroness Flather | 734 c861 (Link to this contribution) I did not say that. I said that if people know that they will not continuously keep receiving benefi...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 734 c861 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are back again to groupings and, like the noble Lord, Lord Newton, I am very much in fa...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 734 c861-3 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for being put right. However, I still have differences of opinion with my noble friend...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c852-3 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is not dealing with the point. On the latest updated assessment, something like a quart...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 734 c853 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, will the Minister just give a categorical assurance to the House that those affected by th...

Lord Freud | 734 c853 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on the figures in that new impact assessment, the majority of people have full or partial ...

Bishop of Ripon and Leeds | 734 c855 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to all those who have contributed to this debate and to the Minister for his...

Lord Freud | 734 c853-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am obviously not going to make that commitment because that is not how this cap is struc...

Lord Skelmersdale | 734 c887 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, would the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, accept that she is talking about are those who have ...

Baroness Drake | 734 c885-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support Amendment 60, to which my name is attached. It would support hard-working people...

Lord Best | 734 c883-5 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendments 60 and 61, which would constrain two of the more extreme aspects of the ...

Lord Best | 734 c883 (Link to this contribution) 60: Clause 94, page 64, line 5, at end insert— ““( ) Regulations under this section shall provide th...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c864-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I start with the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Flather. I find them confused on a...

Baroness Tyler of Enfield | 734 c863-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like to add some of my concerns about the impact of the benefit cap in London. The...

Baroness Flather | 734 c867 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, forgive me, but I thought I was a Peer here, and being a Peer means being equal. Amendmen...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c867 (Link to this contribution) : My Lords, I do not wish to be unkind, but we do not have to subject ourselves to this nonsense, do...

Baroness Flather | 734 c866-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will just say a few words about what has been said about my amendment. I was very surpri...

Lord Freud | 734 c865-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the effects of Amendments 59A and 61A would be to reduce the level of universal credit awa...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 734 c916 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for his full response, given the lateness of the hour. ...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 734 c913-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in moving Amendment 62ZA, I shall speak also to Amendment 62B. These amendments focus on t...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 734 c913 (Link to this contribution) 62ZA: Clause 100, page 67, line 24, at end insert— ““( ) After subsection (8)(b) there is inserted— ...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 734 c913 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think that everybody is trying to be very constructive tonight. I see that the noble Bar...

Baroness Meacher | 734 c913 (Link to this contribution) I would like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, but also the Minister for that very helpful rep...

Lord Freud | 734 c912-3 (Link to this contribution) Last week, I think, we had a regulation on this. Time does not fly for the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie...

Baroness Meacher | 734 c912 (Link to this contribution) The Minister was talking about being unable to accept this amendment in full and referred to alterna...

Lord Freud | 734 c912 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is a real point because we know that virtually all addiction treatment centres are mann...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c914 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, for the sake of brevity, I can say that I also concur with my noble friend and with the no...

Lord Freud | 734 c914-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 62ZA and 62B. I could almost do so like my noble friend Lord K...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 734 c900 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord were to combine child benefit, for example—given today’s decision by this House—wi...

Lord Freud | 734 c900 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I ought to pick up the initial remark by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, that this amendm...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 734 c899 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, rather like the amendment which we discussed earlier on carers, this amendment will, as ha...

Baroness Tyler of Enfield | 734 c898-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment that has just been moved so powerfully and comprehensively by the ...

Lord Best | 734 c894-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sure talk of further Divisions will be unnecessary at this late hour. I am very grate...

Baroness Drake | 734 c895-6 (Link to this contribution) 60B: Clause 94, page 64, line 5, at end insert— ““( ) Regulations under this section must provide fo...

Lord Greaves | 734 c893-4 (Link to this contribution) On the same point, the Localism Act 2011, which we recently passed, means that in many cases local a...

Lord Freud | 734 c894 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, one can very easily see circumstances in which a local authority considers that to be a ve...

Lord Freud | 734 c893 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are going to spend a lot of time on getting this right. It is not something we want fro...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 734 c893 (Link to this contribution) Given that we are expecting a localism Bill next year—I guess—would it be incorporated in that, so t...

Lord Freud | 734 c893 (Link to this contribution) No, that will be beyond the Bill becoming an Act, so we are looking at how we do this in regulations...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c890-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment 60A seeks to protect carers from the impact of the benefit cap in cases in which...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 734 c889-90 (Link to this contribution) I have a more specific question about disability living allowance and I think this may be the right ...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 734 c893 (Link to this contribution) Can I ask the Minister whether ““before too long”” would be before Third Reading? We have had lots o...

Lord Freud | 734 c891-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment 60 would require us to provide for a period of 26 weeks during which we could no...

Baroness Drake | 734 c887 (Link to this contribution) The Bill sets the welfare rules for people who do not have a record of benefit dependency. In the na...

Lord Stoneham of Droxford | 734 c887-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have a lot of sympathy for the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Best. It is largely abo...

Baroness Hollins | 734 c888-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 60A, which is perhaps slightly oddly grouped with the amendment...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 734 c889 (Link to this contribution) I will speak briefly in support of Amendment 60A. The noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, has probably not...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 734 c912 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could concur with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. I support these amendme...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c911 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak briefly. The thrust of what the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, is trying to ac...

Lord Freud | 734 c907-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, under universal credit, couples will make a joint claim for benefit payment. We have been ...

Baroness Meacher | 734 c908 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for interrupting the Minister. How does he feel that that will work if the partner into ...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 734 c906-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am looking forward to the Minister’s reply. Otherwise we will worry about the sleeping p...

Baroness Meacher | 734 c910 (Link to this contribution) 62: After Clause 99, insert the following new Clause— ““Benefits payments to prisoners (1) Regulatio...

Baroness Meacher | 734 c910-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to move, very briefly, Amendment 62 on behalf of my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham, w...

Lord Freud | 734 c908-9 (Link to this contribution) I was going to say that 7 per cent of cohabiting couples and 2 per cent of married couples manage th...

Baroness Meacher | 734 c909-10 (Link to this contribution) I thank those who have contributed to this debate and thank the Minister for his reply. I am interes...

Baroness Meacher | 734 c902-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment would ensure that within universal credit the elements of benefit awarded fo...

Baroness Meacher | 734 c902 (Link to this contribution) 61B: Clause 98, page 66, line 18, at end insert— ““(b) to determine that payment should be made to w...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 734 c906 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall add a few comments to the speeches of the noble Baronesses, Lady Meacher and Lady ...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 734 c904-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to speak in support of Amendment 61B, to which my name is attached, and to Amendmen...

Lord Freud | 734 c901 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as always, I am incredibly grateful to the noble Baroness for her suggestion. I am thinkin...

Baroness Drake | 734 c901 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their support and the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, who also argued ...

Lord Freud | 734 c901 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may answer that straight on. I hope I made myself clear that when we get the regulations o...

Baroness Drake | 734 c901 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for that response. In the earlier stages of the debate on this community, my ...

Lord Freud | 734 c901 (Link to this contribution) Hansard needs more than a nod. Without elaborating on a lot of transitional arrangements, I am not q...

Baroness Drake | 734 c901-2 (Link to this contribution) Obviously it would have been preferable if the Minister had said unequivocally that this matter will...

Baroness Donaghy | 734 c803-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as I said in Committee, I appreciate that this is by way of an interval in the big picture...

Lord Newton of Braintree | 734 c849 (Link to this contribution) I meant to say at the beginning, but I do not think I did, that if anyone can be held responsible fo...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 734 c914 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I concur with the noble Baroness, Lady Lister.

Baroness Drake | 734 c896-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to move Amendment 60B, the purpose of which is to exempt from the benefit cap famil...

Lord Freud | 734 c911-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is a shame that the noble Lord is not here to move the amendment. I thank the noble Bar...

Bishop of Ripon and Leeds | 734 c813 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have added my name to Amendment 58D for a number of reasons. The figure of 80,000 people...

Baroness Tyler of Enfield | 734 c838-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment, to which my name is also attached. We have heard a lot today abou...

Subjects

Disability

Disability living allowance

Child benefit

Compensation

Childcare

Appeals

Disadvantaged

Benefits rules

Carers

Costs

Housing benefit