UK Parliament / Open data

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Wednesday, 18 January 2012, in the House of Lords.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. Lords committee stage fourth day. Schedule 1 under consideration.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
734 c581-636, 652-702 
Session
2010-12
Department
Ministry of Justice
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 109-EN also published.
Thursday, 3 November 2011
Bills
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2012-0144
Tuesday, 24 January 2012
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Legislative scrutiny: Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. Human Rights Joint Select Committee twenty-second report with formal minutes and written evidence.
Tuesday, 13 December 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
House of Commons
Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. Twenty-second report on: Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill - Government response. (Lords Minutes).
Monday, 19 December 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords

Show all related items (6)
Proceeding contributions
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c659-60 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, indicated when speaking to her amendmen...
Lord Bach | 734 c659 (Link to this contribution) In general terms, I am sure that the noble Baroness is right.

Show all contributions (152)
Lord Judd | 734 c656 (Link to this contribution) I warmly commend the amendment, which I think will receive strong support from all parts of the Hous...
Lord Avebury | 734 c656-7 (Link to this contribution) I would like to say a word on migrant domestic workers. First, I congratulate the noble and learned ...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 734 c656 (Link to this contribution) I certainly saw the amendment as broad as that, and they may very well be able to do it through the ...
Lord Bach | 734 c659 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid—or should I say that I am glad?—that my professional experience as a lawyer never includ...
Lord Bach | 734 c657-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we absolutely support the noble and learned Baroness in her amendments in this group. Very...
Baroness Hamwee | 734 c658-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord has had the professional experience that I have had, where...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 734 c653-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Minister may be relieved to hear that these are the last two amendments in my name. Th...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 734 c652-3 (Link to this contribution) 61A: Schedule 1, page 128, line 20, at end insert— ““Victims of trafficking of human beings Civil le...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 734 c656 (Link to this contribution) I am in total sympathy with the amendments that the noble and learned Baroness has tabled, but I wan...
Baroness Hamwee | 734 c655 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support these amendments with great enthusiasm. The noble and learned Baroness referred ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c633 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, at the risk of repetition, I have already said that numerous routes within scope, other th...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c634 (Link to this contribution) Part 1 of Schedule 1 indicates a number of remedies that are available and within scope. We have sou...
Lord Judd | 734 c634 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the Minister for giving way. He is being given quite a cross-examination at th...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c634-6 (Link to this contribution) I recognise the important point that the noble Lord, Lord Judd, makes. I assure him that, in trying ...
Lord Ramsbotham | 734 c636 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble and learned Lord for summing up in a very complicated summ...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 734 c633 (Link to this contribution) Will the noble and learned Lord consider very carefully whether he is really content that through th...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c633 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have tried to identify the other parts of Schedule 1 where other remedies are indicated ...
Lord Beecham | 734 c633 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to intervene and I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Are the Government approac...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c632-3 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that I fully understand the point that the noble Lord is making. Obviously, if at a la...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 734 c632 (Link to this contribution) I am talking about the solicitor who originally investigates a case being not very competent. He con...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 734 c632 (Link to this contribution) Did the Minister really say that in no circumstances would legal aid be available where the infringe...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c632 (Link to this contribution) It is not that there is no possible remedy; it is a question of whether legal aid would be available...
Lord Bach | 734 c632 (Link to this contribution) Why should it be only the most serious abuses that allow the victim to get legal aid? There are all ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c632 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as I have sought to explain, we are trying to recognise in the Bill that there are limited...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c631-2 (Link to this contribution) I recognise what my noble and learned friend is saying. I said at the outset that we intend to focus...
Earl of Listowel | 734 c691 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I confess to feeling very troubled by what I have heard in the Chamber during this debate....
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 734 c690-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, after three excellent speeches I will make only one point, following directly from the las...
Lord McNally | 734 c694-701 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this large group includes a number of government amendments, which I presume are acceptabl...
Lord Beecham | 734 c691-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I come to this debate informed not only, as ever, by the noble Lord, Lord Best, whose expe...
Lord Shipley | 734 c702 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his contributions to identifying what is at the heart...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c701-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, listening to this debate on housing reminds me of being told when I was very young that a ...
Lord Shipley | 734 c684-7 (Link to this contribution) I rise to move Amendment 72A and to speak to Amendments 72B to 72D, 74C, 77A to 77H, 77K, 78A and 78...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 734 c689-90 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Best, was well worth waiting for. This is a very import...
Lord Best | 734 c687-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 72A and support the case made by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, ...
Lord McNally | 734 c681-3 (Link to this contribution) I do not think the noble Lord should worry. At this time of night it becomes a bit of a blur for us ...
Lord Best | 734 c681 (Link to this contribution) I shall return to this later.
Lord Beecham | 734 c681 (Link to this contribution) Is the noble Lord speaking to Amendment 72 or Amendment 72A? Amendment 72 is about debt.
Lord Best | 734 c681 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendment 72 and make the case for legal aid in housing cases beyond those where so...
Lord Shipley | 734 c684 (Link to this contribution) 72A: Schedule 1, page 131, line 7, at end insert— ““( ) a demolition order under section 82A of the ...
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara | 734 c683-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Best, for trying to come to my aid. I am sorry that he was no...
Lord McNally | 734 c683 (Link to this contribution) No, of course I cannot give that assurance, but neither do I assume the absolute worst case in every...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 734 c683 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister assure the Committee with complete confidence that every single one of the organisa...
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara | 734 c679-81 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall also speak to Amendments 82ZC and 82D in the name of my noble friends Lord Bach an...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c678 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment 69, moved by my noble friend, seeks to bring family reunion cases into the scope...
Lord Bach | 734 c677 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I can be very brief. The arguments put forward for these amendments are very powerful and ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c678-9 (Link to this contribution) I hear what my noble friend says. I will check, but I was not aware that the Government had encourag...
Lord Avebury | 734 c678 (Link to this contribution) I may have misled my noble friend. What I was pointing out was that it was the Government’s own sugg...
Lord Avebury | 734 c676 (Link to this contribution) I warmly support my noble friend in this amendment. I reinforce what he has already said by referenc...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c675-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I must apologise to my noble and learned friend for failing to address this issue when it ...
Lord Avebury | 734 c676-7 (Link to this contribution) I was saying that I hope that this note, which we have all received from the UNHCR, has been sent by...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c676 (Link to this contribution) I was trying to indicate that I did not pick up what my noble friend said. I would be grateful if he...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c675 (Link to this contribution) 69: Schedule 1, page 130, line 12, at end insert— ““(1A) Civil legal services provided to an individ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c679 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the assurance that the Minister has given that he will look at this matter again a...
Lord Avebury | 734 c668-71 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, these amendments, supported by the Immigration Law Practitioners’ Association, which assis...
Lord Avebury | 734 c668 (Link to this contribution) 68: Schedule 1, page 130, line 8, after ““Kingdom”” insert ““to a person who is liable to detention ...
Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 734 c668 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his reply. In some ways, I am partially encouraged by the reply but I also ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c666-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, first, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Gould of Potternewton, for introducing the amendme...
Baroness Gale | 734 c664-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I speak in support of the amendments and thank my noble friend Lady Gould for speaking to ...
Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 734 c661-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in moving Amendment 62 I shall speak also to Amendments 63 to 67, 69A and 70A. I am deligh...
Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 734 c661 (Link to this contribution) 62: Schedule 1, page 129, line 14, leave out ““indefinite””
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c672-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Avebury for moving his amendment, which relates to issues of ...
Lord Avebury | 734 c674 (Link to this contribution) In one respect, I can agree entirely with my noble and learned friend and that is that I am wholly d...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c628-30 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, for introducing this group of amendments. Arguabl...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c630 (Link to this contribution) It is an important point, which has been raised before in the context of the Bill. I think that Amen...
Lord Avebury | 734 c630 (Link to this contribution) Although paragraph 26(1)(a) allows claimants to be granted legal aid in respect of asylum, it does n...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c630 (Link to this contribution) As I said to my noble friend Lord Phillips, the Bill does not include negligent actions of a public ...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 734 c630 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is defending the Bill’s drafting against the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotha...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c631 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend well knows that where recklessness goes into intent is not always very clear. I very...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c631 (Link to this contribution) As I said earlier, when my noble friend asked whether deliberate meant intentional, that is what it ...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 734 c631 (Link to this contribution) On Paragraph 19(6), the Minister said that the word deliberate would not cover negligence. What is a...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 734 c631 (Link to this contribution) We quite understand the point that the noble and learned Lord is making: that the intention of Minis...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 734 c612 (Link to this contribution) 54: Schedule 1, page 125, line 38, leave out ““paragraph 15”” and insert ““paragraphs 1 to 5, 8 and ...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 734 c612-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment stands in my name and that of other noble Lords. I should make it clear that...
Lord McNally | 734 c611 (Link to this contribution) I echo that tribute to my noble friend Lord Newton. I passed him in the corridor the other day and s...
Lord Beecham | 734 c611 (Link to this contribution) That is what makes him a national treasure.
Lord McNally | 734 c611 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on the treatment issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, and others, I am advised t...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c611-2 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the noble Lord, Lord Be...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 734 c609 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support this amendment. I declare an earlier interest in that I was the judge who tried ...
Lord Beecham | 734 c609-10 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, on raising this matter and moving an amendment...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 734 c610 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may briefly intervene, having been frightened off by the fact that no one else, other than...
Lord Beecham | 734 c610-1 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble Lord for his intervention. On behalf of all those who have benefited...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c608-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment was suggested by the Bar Council to put a particular issue into scope. It re...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 734 c607 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful for the support and experience of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland. ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c608 (Link to this contribution) 53: Schedule 1, page 125, line 31, at end insert— ““Best interests of patients 16A Civil legal servi...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 734 c606-7 (Link to this contribution) I support the noble and learned Baroness in this matter. She is absolutely right that these cases ar...
Lord McNally | 734 c607 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not want to get into a situation where I take things away and give the impression tha...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 734 c606 (Link to this contribution) 47: Schedule 1, page 121, line 47, at end insert— ““( ) Civil legal services provided to an individu...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 734 c606 (Link to this contribution) This is another aspect of a situation in which the possible perpetrator, unrepresented, cross-examin...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 734 c605-6 (Link to this contribution) 45: Schedule 1, page 120, leave out lines 42 to 45 and insert— ““““abuse”” means any incident or rep...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 734 c606 (Link to this contribution) I shall not move Amendments 45 and 46, but I can reassure the noble Lord that, if his efforts prove ...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 734 c605 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister. I found it absolutely irresistible to say that. Each of the points that we hav...
Earl of Sandwich | 734 c626 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not sure whether this is the appropriate amendment, but having had some experience of...
Lord Beecham | 734 c626-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to deal with the amendments in this group, one of which, Amendment 90ZZA, is in my ...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 734 c628 (Link to this contribution) I am concerned about the position of the Official Solicitor. Would he not be inhibited from acting a...
Lord Ramsbotham | 734 c622 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the purpose of Amendments 60 and 61 is to ask the Government to rectify an omission that d...
Lord Berkeley | 734 c623-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 61ZA, which is in this group. It does not much relate to the am...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 734 c624 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak in favour of Amendment 60, for which the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, has ma...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 734 c624-5 (Link to this contribution) I, too, would like to say a word in support of the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbot...
Lord Judd | 734 c625 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, commend this amendment for very serious attention. In the economic pressures under...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 734 c625-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my name is attached to Amendments 60 and 61 which were spoken to by my noble friend Lord R...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c621 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend Lord Carlile replies regarding his amendment, I thank the Minister for his re...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 734 c621 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in relation to Amendment 54, I am grateful for the explicit support from the noble Lord, L...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 734 c618 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to my noble and learned friend. He has been extremely helpful. Can he clarify one...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c618-21 (Link to this contribution) This is quite important. As my noble friend will recognise, the overall structure of what is propose...
Lord Ramsbotham | 734 c622 (Link to this contribution) 60: Schedule 1, page 127, line 33, after ““deliberate”” insert ““, unlawful””
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c613-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I speak to Amendments 55 to 59 which are in my name and that of other noble Lords. I recal...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c618 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have come to an important part of Schedule 1, relating generally to immigration, asylum...
Lord Bach | 734 c616-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Committee should be grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Carlile of Berriew and Lord Thom...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 734 c617 (Link to this contribution) I cannot resist asking the noble Lord whether he would also class as a failure of the system the fac...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 734 c587-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is the first of a group of amendments relating to domestic violence. Some of them ove...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 734 c587 (Link to this contribution) 42: Schedule 1, page 120, line 11, at end insert— ““( ) Civil legal services provided to an adult (“...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 734 c589 (Link to this contribution) Has the noble Lord made representations to this effect? If so, what has been the reply?
Lord Macdonald of River Glaven | 734 c588-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wish to speak to Amendments 43 and 44, to which I have attached my name, and to a part o...
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara | 734 c583-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to support Amendment 36 and to speak to Amendment 82ZA. The proposals arising from ...
Baroness Browning | 734 c582-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, support this amendment. My noble friend has exchanged correspondence with me on th...
Lord Clement-Jones | 734 c586 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I propose simply to respond on Amendment 36, so if those on the opposition Front Bench wis...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 734 c584-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I welcome this debate and in particular thank my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones for intro...
Lord Macdonald of River Glaven | 734 c589-90 (Link to this contribution) I am certain that the points that I and other noble Lords made were carefully considered by the Gove...
Lord Scott of Foscote | 734 c590 (Link to this contribution) Can the noble Lord help me on one point? I think I understand well what psychological, physical, sex...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 734 c582 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, special educational needs is a particularly tortuous and difficult area of administration ...
Lord Clement-Jones | 734 c581 (Link to this contribution) 36: Schedule 1, page 116, line 4, at end insert ““and under section 140 of the Learning and Skills A...
Lord Clement-Jones | 734 c581-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, from the outset I should stress that this amendment is strongly supported by the Special E...
Lord McNally | 734 c600 (Link to this contribution) If I am misleading the Committee in any way in this exchange, I will of course write and correct it....
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 734 c600 (Link to this contribution) Was that not a case in which the Supreme Court was being asked to determine whether a specific aspec...
Lord McNally | 734 c600-2 (Link to this contribution) Every time I look up, the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, is speaking somewhere in the Chamber. The Opposi...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 734 c600 (Link to this contribution) One of my colleagues has just suggested that maybe the noble Lord is in need of a little legal aid.
Lord McNally | 734 c602-3 (Link to this contribution) The Welsh Women’s Aid report has been published very recently and we will look carefully at it. I sh...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 734 c602 (Link to this contribution) I hesitate to interrupt the noble Lord but can he help me on a point about legal aid being withdrawn...
Lord McNally | 734 c603-4 (Link to this contribution) I will very happily think about it and I naturally assume that the noble and learned Baroness is try...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 734 c603 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not by any means want to harry the noble Lord but, given what he said about the need ...
Lord McNally | 734 c604-5 (Link to this contribution) That can be taken as implied. I assure the noble and learned Baroness that when I tell him who has s...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 734 c604 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank all those who, with a great deal of knowledge, have contributed to this important ...
Lord Macdonald of River Glaven | 734 c590-1 (Link to this contribution) One can imagine a category of abuse that is primarily financial. Of course, it could carry in its tr...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 734 c596 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is right. We tend to think of familial violence as violence within a family group and...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 734 c592-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is a real privilege to follow the last three, very powerful, speeches in support of thi...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 734 c591-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support these amendments. I will particularly refer to Amendment 46. It seems to me that...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 734 c599 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the Minister will forgive me for interrupting him. Can he explain what is wrong with the...
Lord McNally | 734 c598-9 (Link to this contribution) I will take this back but, again, I am speaking as a layman to professionals. As far as I understand...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 734 c598 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend moves on from that point, can he go a little further in answering the issue r...
Lord McNally | 734 c596-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the other evening I said that a smile always came to my face when the noble and learned Ba...
Lord McNally | 734 c599-600 (Link to this contribution) I will write on this matter, but I think that here the noble and learned Baroness is wrong. As far a...
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara | 734 c679 (Link to this contribution) 72: Schedule 1, page 131, line 7, at end insert— ““( ) situations where a person’s financial difficu...
Lord Bach | 734 c671-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, has made a very powerful case for the amendment that he has ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 734 c631 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the Minister’s flow, but this is a valuable opportunity to get to the bottom...
Lord Beecham | 734 c628 (Link to this contribution) That certainly must be a risk, and the need for the assistance of the Court of Protection is therefo...
Lord Bach | 734 c617-8 (Link to this contribution) I cannot blame the noble Lord for asking an-ex Legal Aid Minister that question. In immigration law ...
Bishop of Chichester | 734 c596 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble and learned Baroness sits down, could she help me just a little? On Amendment 45, i...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 734 c660-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, may I first thank noble Lords for their substantial and much appreciated support for these...
Subjects
Disability
Children
Compensation
Admissions
Asylum
Detainees
Consent to medical treatment
Damages
Debts
Crown lands and estates
Credit
Equality
Housing
Education
Legal aid scheme
Immigration
Domestic abuse
Human trafficking
Discrimination
Learning disability
Domestic service
Landlords
Evictions
Drinks
Duchy of Cornwall
Medical treatments
Patients
Protection
Nutrition
Palliative care
Migrant workers
Social security benefits
Water
Special educational needs
Sexual offences
Refugees
Repairs and maintenance
Tenants
Rented housing
Repossession orders
Debt relief orders
Legislation
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill 2010-12
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