UK Parliament / Open data

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Tuesday, 10 January 2012, in the House of Lords.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. lords committee stage second day. Clauses 1 to 7 agreed to.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
734 c11-49, 72-110 
Session
2010-12
Department
Ministry of Justice
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 109-EN also published.
Thursday, 3 November 2011
Bills
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2012-0072
Monday, 16 January 2012
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Legislative scrutiny: Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. Human Rights Joint Select Committee twenty-second report with formal minutes and written evidence.
Tuesday, 13 December 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
House of Commons
Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. Twenty-second report on: Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill - Government response. (Lords Minutes).
Monday, 19 December 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords

Show all related items (5)
Proceeding contributions
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 734 c78 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to my noble friend and I apologise for interrupting him again but this is intende...
Lord McNally | 734 c78 (Link to this contribution) One of the joys of this job is answering questions on the law posed by learned QCs. I honestly do no...

Show all contributions (129)
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 734 c78 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the Minister but, speaking as another lawyer, the problem with ““may”” is that...
Lord McNally | 734 c78 (Link to this contribution) But if he ““may”” and he does not do it, again from my layman’s view and from what I gather my noble...
Lord McNally | 734 c78 (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Baroness asks that from a sedentary position. That is the position that the Go...
Lord Bach | 734 c78 (Link to this contribution) I may not have been party to many of them, but I can assure the noble Lord that of course there were...
Lord McNally | 734 c76-7 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps he would like to move the next four groups formally as well. Amendment 8 seeks to achieve t...
Lord McNally | 734 c77-8 (Link to this contribution) No, my Lords. I go back to what I have said. Neither I nor my noble friend the Lord Chancellor wants...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 734 c77 (Link to this contribution) If there are circumstances in which it would be inappropriate to consult the Law Society and the Bar...
Lord McNally | 734 c90-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bach, for the way he has summed up the debate. This ...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 734 c88-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as another non-lawyer, perhaps I may join in very briefly. I have listened to everything t...
Baroness Prashar | 734 c88 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, support the amendments, particularly Amendment 15 in my name. I concur with all th...
Lord Bach | 734 c89-90 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have heard short but very impressive speeches on this very important group. Clause 4 is...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c89 (Link to this contribution) The issue that concerns me in Clause 4 is subsection (3). Under subsection (4): "““The Lord Chancell...
Lord Faulks | 734 c86 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, support the amendments. I will be brief, as the reasons were so admirably summaris...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 734 c87-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I speak to Amendments 14 and 16, where my name is coupled with those of my noble friends L...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 734 c88 (Link to this contribution) When the Minister replies, will he assist the House by telling us what will be the manifestations of...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 734 c88 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there is a very real difficulty about the whole of Clause 4 because there is nothing in it...
Lord Woolf | 734 c85-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as is always the case, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, has summarised the arguments in suppo...
Lord Pannick | 734 c84-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment is in my name and those of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, and the ...
Lord Pannick | 734 c84 (Link to this contribution) 13: Clause 4, page 3, line 13, at end insert— ““( ) The Lord Chancellor must ensure that— (a) the pe...
Lord Beecham | 734 c84 (Link to this contribution) It strikes me that it would appeal to members of the Bar because it could be an endless source of wo...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 734 c83 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord not take some solace from the view expressed by my noble friend Lord Carlile and...
Lord Beecham | 734 c82-3 (Link to this contribution) I am glad to have given the Minister the opportunity to buy one group of amendments and get another ...
Lord McNally | 734 c82 (Link to this contribution) If I may say so, that is an extremely helpful intervention. One reason why my right honourable frien...
Lord McNally | 734 c81 (Link to this contribution) No, I recognise a red rag when I see one. I will think about the point that the noble Lord made. I c...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 734 c81-2 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend withdraws his amendment, perhaps I can ask the Minister a question. I am sure...
Lord McNally | 734 c78-81 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord knows very well why I cannot accept it, but I hear what has been said. If the noble L...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c100 (Link to this contribution) These events occurred long ago when I was in my solicitor phase. I was called ““Mr”” in those days. ...
Lord Woolf | 734 c100 (Link to this contribution) As someone who was a member of such a committee, I should say that it also included members of the B...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 734 c100-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, having inherited a number of returns from my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford when we ...
Lord McNally | 734 c97 (Link to this contribution) I have a full speaking note on Clause 4, but I have heard what the noble Lord has said. I am not sur...
Lord Bach | 734 c97 (Link to this contribution) 18: After Clause 4, insert the following new Clause— ““Legal Aid appeals (1) Decisions of the Direct...
Lord Bach | 734 c98-9 (Link to this contribution) This, I hope, is one of the least controversial of our amendments. If enacted, it would ensure that ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 734 c99 (Link to this contribution) Is one to read Amendment 18 as meaning that on any appeal from a refusal there will be an oral heari...
Lord Bach | 734 c99 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hope that I am correct in saying that our intention is that there should be a process wh...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c99-100 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wish to speak to Amendment 96 in my name. We take the view that the appeal to the First-...
Lord Pannick | 734 c96-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for the constructive approach that he has taken to the impor...
Lord McNally | 734 c96 (Link to this contribution) I can do no more than suggest that the noble Lord reads the Bill, because it sets out the structure ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c95-6 (Link to this contribution) I wish to add further concerns, having heard the Minister’s reply. I understand that the director wo...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 734 c91 (Link to this contribution) Will the annual report say what the directions are? How are the legitimately interested public to kn...
Lord McNally | 734 c91 (Link to this contribution) I think that we will have to await the document, but I will take advice on it. As far as I understan...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 734 c93 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt my noble friend’s flow, but surely for him to argue, as he just has, that al...
Lord Williamson of Horton | 734 c91 (Link to this contribution) It is covered by the Bill, in subsection (5). The directions have to be published. Whether they shou...
Lord McNally | 734 c91-2 (Link to this contribution) I am also told that the director’s terms and conditions will govern the circumstances in which they ...
Lord McNally | 734 c108-10 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are approaching the witching hour, as the opposition Whip moves stealthily to consult t...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 734 c108 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my name is on this amendment. As persuasively put by my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresfo...
Lord Beecham | 734 c106-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, I was unaware of collaborative law until I read the brie...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 734 c106 (Link to this contribution) I am an honorary member of Resolution. I would like the Committee to know that Resolution has extrem...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c105-6 (Link to this contribution) We come to Clause 7, ““Civil legal services””. These services, "““include, in particular, advice and...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c105 (Link to this contribution) 20: Clause 7, page 5, line 25, after ““mediation”” insert ““, collaborative law””
Lord Bach | 734 c104-5 (Link to this contribution) I will withdraw the amendment, of course, but there is a real issue here which goes to the independe...
Lord McNally | 734 c104 (Link to this contribution) As I say so often, I am not a lawyer—thank God. There was a question about how the independent fund...
Lord Beecham | 734 c110 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps the Minister might suggest an experiment with collaborative resolution. If the Pri...
Lord McNally | 734 c102-4 (Link to this contribution) I will have to take advice on that, but I thank the noble Lord for drawing it to my attention. I som...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 734 c102 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for interrupting my noble friend, but he referred in passing to Clause 11(6). Can he exp...
Lord McNally | 734 c101-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the intention of the amendment is to establish a tribunal to review determinations made by...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 734 c102 (Link to this contribution) Clause 11(5) says ““must””, whereas Clause 11(6) says ““may””—perhaps echoing a point made by the no...
Lord McNally | 734 c102 (Link to this contribution) Which was the first one to which the noble Lord referred?
Lord McNally | 734 c104 (Link to this contribution) Free? Oh my goodness. I withdraw that remark.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 734 c104 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this cannot pass. It must be in Hansard that on this occasion, rare though it is, lawyers ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 734 c110 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have to confess that I am disappointed with my noble friend’s response and I shall certa...
Lord McNally | 734 c110 (Link to this contribution) That is a merry jest with which to end the evening.
Lord Beecham | 734 c74 (Link to this contribution) In the circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 7 withdrawn. Amendment 8 M...
Lord Beecham | 734 c74-5 (Link to this contribution) 8: Clause 2, page 2, line 23, at end insert— ““( ) Before making regulations relating to the payment...
Lord Beecham | 734 c75-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord may say that this amendment relates only to the Public Defender Service, in...
Lord Beecham | 734 c72 (Link to this contribution) 7: Clause 2, page 2, line 20, at end insert— ““( ) Before making arrangements under subsection (2)(c...
Lord Beecham | 734 c72-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, after the nerve-tingling excitement of the debate on the previous amendment, we come to ar...
Lord Beecham | 734 c74 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am tempted to apologise to the Minister for not having the telepathic powers that would ...
Lord McNally | 734 c74 (Link to this contribution) If it would be helpful, I will write to the noble Lord to clarify and I will consult with colleagues...
Lord McNally | 734 c47 (Link to this contribution) Coming from a Preston girl, that is a compliment—I think. I will read Hansard. I realise that very i...
Lord Bach | 734 c47-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have had a very full debate, as the Minister reminded us. However, it was very worth wh...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 734 c47 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has lost none of his Blackpool charm.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 734 c46-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, will the Minister give an assurance to the House that he will read this debate carefully a...
Lord McNally | 734 c47 (Link to this contribution) No, my Lords. I will read the debate and consider these matters, but frankly some of the issues rais...
Lord McNally | 734 c46 (Link to this contribution) Even after 15 years I am never sure who is gallant, who is learned and who is—like the noble Lord, L...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 734 c45 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I make it plain to the Minister and reassure him that no one is trying to be unfair in rel...
Lord McNally | 734 c45-6 (Link to this contribution) We will discuss this point at a further stage of the Bill. I compare that intervention by the noble ...
Lord McNally | 734 c43-5 (Link to this contribution) One has to face up to these things but it is always a case of cuts being made somewhere else. We hav...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 734 c45 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has said very helpfully that downstream costs affecting other departments were factor...
Lord McNally | 734 c45 (Link to this contribution) No. The commitment is to the expenditure from my department, and factored in are discussions with ot...
Lord McNally | 734 c42 (Link to this contribution) Fortunately, I know that the noble Lord has himself stood at this Dispatch Box, and I am sure that t...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 734 c42-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I ask the Minister for the Government to produce their report. It is no good the Governmen...
Lord McNally | 734 c43 (Link to this contribution) I suggest that the noble Baroness reads our impact assessment, which has been quoted. Our critics ca...
Lord Dubs | 734 c41 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may add a brief point to the debate, and I very much agree with the comments tha...
Lord McNally | 734 c42 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am most grateful for all the contributions to what has been an extremely full debate—one...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 734 c42 (Link to this contribution) But if the Government are wrong about saving £350 million, and if the cost of providing services equ...
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 734 c32-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, like my noble friend Lady Massey, I want to draw attention to the impact of the proposals ...
Baroness Massey of Darwen | 734 c31-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I want briefly to support this amendment moved by my noble friend and to welcome the contr...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 734 c37-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I find myself in agreement with practically everything that has been said in this debate. ...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 734 c36-7 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether I am speaking for these amendments or against them. I started the day at 3 o’c...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 734 c35-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, support the amendment, which is about unintended consequences. The Government shou...
Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 734 c34-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am beginning to feel rather sorry for the Minister as he listens to the debate because I...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 734 c40-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I very much agree with everything that my noble friend has just said with her great common...
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 734 c39-40 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have listened carefully to people speaking in your Lordships’ House who have a much grea...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 734 c39 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as another former MP I echo the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis. Many is ...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 734 c38-9 (Link to this contribution) I agree so much with what has been said by the noble Lord but I disagree with his conclusion about t...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 734 c28-31 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend Lord Bach is quite right to table an amendment requiring that the Governme...
Lord McNally | 734 c19-20 (Link to this contribution) I refer to quality because the amendment itself does so, but the application for legal aid will go t...
Lord McNally | 734 c20 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that I can give that assurance. The more that this goes on, the more that one can see...
Baroness Kennedy of the Shaws | 734 c20 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt. On the issue of the assumption that experts will cluster in London rather t...
Lord Beecham | 734 c20-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. Several noble and learned Lor...
Lord Wigley | 734 c25-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support Amendment 6, which was so reasonably moved by the noble Lord, Lord Bach, and to ...
Lord Bach | 734 c22-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in moving Amendment 6 I will speak also to my Amendment 194. In this group there are also ...
Lord Pannick | 734 c27-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, support the amendment. The case for the Bill depends on two factual premises. The ...
Lord Judd | 734 c26-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment. As my noble friend argued so well in his introduction, it deals w...
Lord McNally | 734 c18-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate. It has gone slig...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 734 c19 (Link to this contribution) In trying to follow this, I must say that surely the question of the quality of the expert evidence ...
Lord Woolf | 734 c18 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, may I say a few words in support of this proposal? Expert evidence is an area in which the...
Lord Walton of Detchant | 734 c17-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I had not intended to speak on this issue, except to give brief support to the amendment t...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 734 c17 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as everyone who has spoken has said, it would self-evidently be a false economy and prejud...
Lord Faulks | 734 c16-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, most Members of this House would approve of the idea of having good-quality expert evidenc...
Lord Morris of Aberavon | 734 c15-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, a range of issues could be raised under the amendment, which I support. It is self-evident...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 734 c15 (Link to this contribution) The consortium has opined that deleterious effects will follow the Government’s proposals. It says t...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 734 c15 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendment that has been moved with such clarity by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham....
Baroness Kennedy of the Shaws | 734 c14-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment and want to reinforce my noble friend’s concern over creating a tw...
Lord Beecham | 734 c11 (Link to this contribution) 5: Clause 1, page 2, line 4, at end insert— ““( ) The Lord Chancellor must review the accessibility ...
Lord Beecham | 734 c11-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment amplifies the definition in Clause 1 in respect of the legal aid and advice...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 734 c108 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I understand that the Government are increasing funding for mediation by two-thirds, which...
Lord McNally | 734 c76 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I note that the noble Lord spoke not only to Amendment 8 but to Amendments 9, 10, 11, 12 a...
Lord Bach | 734 c21-2 (Link to this contribution) 6: After Clause 1, insert the following new Clause— ““Pre-commencement impact assessment (1) The Lor...
Lord Bach | 734 c97 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sorely tempted to test the opinion of the House on Clause 4 tonight; I think it would...
Lord McNally | 734 c93-5 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is repeating the thrust of a number of contributions that I have heard today. My resp...
Lord McNally | 734 c73-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment 7 seeks to require a novel situation whereby specific arrangements that the Lord...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 734 c46 (Link to this contribution) I must rise to that jibe; I am an experienced Lord.
Subjects
Children
Criminal proceedings
Appeals
Disadvantaged
Administration of justice
Civil proceedings
Legal profession
Women
Equality
Health services
Fees and charges
Legal aid scheme
Expenditure
Domestic abuse
Legal Services Commission
Family law
Family proceedings
NHS
Low incomes
Ministerial powers
Public appointments
Negligence
Social security
Sentencing
Standards
Voluntary organisations
Young people
Witnesses
Remand in custody
Ministry of Justice
Expert evidence
Citizens' advice bureaux
Law centres
Impact assessments
Public Defender Service
Lord Chancellor
Mediation
Legislation
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill 2010-12
Link
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