UK Parliament / Open data

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate on bills and Committee proceeding on Wednesday, 23 November 2011, in the House of Lords, led by Lord Wigley. The answering member was Lord Freud.

Welfare Reform Bill. Lords committee stage sixteenth day. Clauses 93-102 considered and agreed to with some amendments. Schedules 11 and 12 agreed. Committee adjourned. Grand Committee held in Committee room 4A.

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

732 c407-72GC

Session

2010-12

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords Grand Committee

Welfare Reform Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 75-EN also published.
Thursday, 16 June 2011
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord De Mauley | 732 c472GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this might be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until Monday at 3.30 pm.

Lord Freud | 732 c472GC (Link to this contribution) 103ZZA: Clause 102, page 68, line 29, leave out ““to the person”” Amendment 103ZZA agreed. Amendme...

Show all contributions (138)

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c453GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, has made a powerful argument about why the current provi...

Lord Freud | 732 c439GC (Link to this contribution) I am thinking about this area. I do not think I am thinking in quite the same way as the noble Baron...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c433-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the two overlapping amendments, Amendments 102ZA and 102A, as well as Amendment ...

Lord Freud | 732 c424GC (Link to this contribution) I wish to make it clear that I absolutely do not accept that figure. I have said that we are introdu...

Lord Northbourne | 732 c425GC (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether the Minister can give some sort of comfort to those of us who feel, as the right re...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c425GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Best, spelled out the challenges that some 200,000 people could face....

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c419GC (Link to this contribution) Some of the Minister’s common phrases are ““soon”” and ““very soon”” and we are beginning to decode ...

Lord Freud | 732 c420GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not think that I am in a position to do that. I think that I will have to leave it to...

Lord Boswell of Aynho | 732 c419GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps my noble friend will assist me. I have been worried a couple of times in this debate, both t...

Lord Freud | 732 c419GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, my Lords. Empson wrote a book called Seven Types of Ambiguity and my noble friend has cited two...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c420GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it also means that the noble Lord will face a lot of amendments on Report, which he would ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c420GC (Link to this contribution) I think that we understand that. However, does the Minister recognise the dilemma with which the Com...

Lord Freud | 732 c420GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am being enticed by the velvet tones of the noble Lord. I am afraid that as we build the...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c420GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord again raises the issue of help in hard cases. Can he give us some indication of what ...

Lord Freud | 732 c420GC (Link to this contribution) All I am able to say at this moment is that there will be transitional arrangements and help for har...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c420GC (Link to this contribution) Forgive me, the question was not how many times the noble Lord has used the phrase but what it means...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c421GC (Link to this contribution) If I may say so, several questions remain unanswered by the Minister. First, if it were established ...

Lord Freud | 732 c421GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have done an estimate of the cost and benefits savings of the cap and we have looked cl...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c421-2GC (Link to this contribution) If that is the case, and the Minister has made that point on several occasions, what does the benefi...

Lord Freud | 732 c422GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the main difference is the simple message behind the cap: in the end, there is a limit to ...

Lord Freud | 732 c420-1GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have been set a challenge and a reward. It would be lovely to collect on that, but I can...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c422GC (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister telling us that this is just an interim, transitional arrangement? I thought it was ...

Lord Freud | 732 c422GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, what we are looking at now is a three-tier persuasion towards behavioural change. We have ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c422GC (Link to this contribution) One accepts that it is a simple message, but I am trying to understand the policy outcomes that the ...

Lord Freud | 732 c422GC (Link to this contribution) I welcome my noble friend’s support because he has expressed the argument much better than I possibl...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 732 c422GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could help the Minister. Surely the answer is that when the universal credit comes in full...

Lord Wigley | 732 c407GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was truncated once again shortly before we finished on Monday. I wanted to add just a fe...

Lord Northbourne | 732 c411GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall not speak at any length because I was not able to be here for the previous day in ...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c411GC (Link to this contribution) I know that I have already spoken once but I want to ask a question now rather than jump up while th...

Baroness Meacher | 732 c410-1GC (Link to this contribution) I support Amendment 99A, which would exempt from the benefit cap, as others have mentioned, claimant...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c407-10GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are talking still about benefit caps. We left the debate on Monday, I think, accepting ...

Lord Freud | 732 c416GC (Link to this contribution) By the time that I am able to set out these arrangements Committee Members will have a tight band in...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c416GC (Link to this contribution) No, my Lords. The Minister made that clear at the last sitting, but unless we know the actual number...

Lord Freud | 732 c415-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, these amendments seek to provide exemptions on the face of the Bill from the application o...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c412-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before we adjourned on Monday we had very significant contributions from noble Lords, as w...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c416-7GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister seems to be moving off PIP. When we discussed PIP earlier I asked a question and the Mi...

Lord Freud | 732 c417GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, my Lords; that is an excellent question in this sense. I have made clear that we are looking at...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c417GC (Link to this contribution) That is very helpful and clear, but the point being made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, and ot...

Baroness Sherlock | 732 c418GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for that important information about the 120,000 or so problem famili...

Lord Freud | 732 c417-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I accept the importance of this issue. There are a lot of angles to it, but I fully accept...

Baroness Sherlock | 732 c418GC (Link to this contribution) I would settle for a few million but a letter will do nicely.

Lord Freud | 732 c418GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not quite sure, off the top of my head, how the mapping of these vulnerable families ...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c419GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps the Minister will say more about that. I do not know about other noble Lords but I...

Lord Freud | 732 c418GC (Link to this contribution) On the child benefit cap, Amendment 99ZB would require us to exclude child benefit when calculating ...

Lord Freud | 732 c419GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I acknowledge that we are not comparing like with like. We are looking at a sensible level...

Bishop of Ripon and Leeds | 732 c428GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very grateful to all those who have taken part in this long and detailed debate on th...

Lord Freud | 732 c428GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will not make any promises on this but I will have another look at it. That is the weake...

Baroness Donaghy | 732 c427-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I deliberately did not intervene on the industrial injuries benefit interval because I did...

Lord Freud | 732 c427GC (Link to this contribution) I fully accept that point, as I have already indicated. I shall bear that point very much in mind as...

Baroness Drake | 732 c427GC (Link to this contribution) I did not get the chance to mention this when other issues were being discussed. The Minister gave a...

Lord Freud | 732 c427GC (Link to this contribution) No; we have made it clear that it would apply to housing benefit and not to other benefits. The cap ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c426-7GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I suspect that we have taken this as far as we can today, but I am sure that we will retur...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c426GC (Link to this contribution) I just want to pick up on my noble friend Lady Lister's point. We know that most lone parents come o...

Lord Freud | 732 c429GC (Link to this contribution) 100: Clause 94, page 63, line 31, at end insert— ““( ) A statutory instrument containing the first r...

Lord Freud | 732 c429GC (Link to this contribution) 102: Clause 94, page 63, line 32, after ““containing”” insert ““other”” Amendment 102 agreed. Clau...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c438GC (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister be able to update us before we get to this on Report? I am sure that we will want ...

Lord Freud | 732 c437-8GC (Link to this contribution) However, in circumstances where a universal credit award is split, neither party will receive specif...

Lord Freud | 732 c438GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was just tidying up on Amendment 102B. We are not looking to put the taper on individual...

Lord Freud | 732 c438GC (Link to this contribution) I would like to. I have people working on this and we are beginning to think quite differently about...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 732 c432GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my Amendment 102A is in this group and I think that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, has u...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 732 c429-32GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think that the Minister was hoping for a Division during the previous discussion like I ...

Lord Freud | 732 c436-7GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Clause 97 provides that in the case of a benefit awarded jointly, such as universal credit...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 732 c429GC (Link to this contribution) 102ZA: Clause 97, page 65, leave out lines 10 to 13 and insert— ““(a) to determine that payment rela...

Baroness Sherlock | 732 c439GC (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend responds, will the Minister explain one thing to the Committee? He has explai...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c422GC (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood—of wherever he is of—would comment, if he were h...

Lord Freud | 732 c422GC (Link to this contribution) I return to the principle. As I understand it, this is a principle with which the Opposition agree: ...

Lord Freud | 732 c424GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Best, for that area of inquiry. We are looking to get early s...

Lord Best | 732 c423-4GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for helpful and hopeful words about the transitional arrangements—the 26-week p...

Lord Freud | 732 c423GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the best piece of information I can provide the Committee on that question is that it is t...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c422-3GC (Link to this contribution) Basically, the noble Lord is constructing universal credit based on meeting several different object...

Bishop of Ripon and Leeds | 732 c424-5GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, will the Minister develop a little further the argument as regards Amendment 99C, which co...

Lord Freud | 732 c425GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hope I made clear my sympathy on the kinship carer point. I am looking at it in the roun...

Lord Wigley | 732 c424GC (Link to this contribution) I find it fairly disturbing that the Minister accepts that 200,000 people will be moving to places w...

Lord Freud | 732 c425GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think I am reduced to making the mainstream point that the amount that such families can...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c425GC (Link to this contribution) Are we seriously saying that, whether it is 90 per cent or two-thirds of the people affected by this...

Lord Freud | 732 c425GC (Link to this contribution) Clearly one of the most important areas of support that we can supply is helping people find work. O...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c425-6GC (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister really saying that it would be supporting, say, a lone mother who has a baby to, in ...

Lord Freud | 732 c425GC (Link to this contribution) That is one of the areas of support. If we have about one-third of families who are subject to full ...

Lord Freud | 732 c426GC (Link to this contribution) There is a combination there. Those are the choices that half of the low income working families nee...

Lord Wigley | 732 c426GC (Link to this contribution) We seem to be getting into a bigger hole on this. If the idea is that 200,000 people, or whatever th...

Lord Freud | 732 c426GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are going round in circles. Noble Lords seem not to like this, although my understandin...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c469GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to take up the Committee’s time, but previously if the recipient said that they were not ...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 732 c469GC (Link to this contribution) Is that an appeal that is open to landlords as well?

Lord Freud | 732 c469GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, that is the process. It becomes a requirement, and then if the claimant says, ““Look, I can’t a...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c471GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will be very brief. I thank the various noble Lords who have contributed and really stre...

Lord Freud | 732 c469-70GC (Link to this contribution) What we are talking about, and what I was describing, is where a payment would be going directly to ...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c471GC (Link to this contribution) I am very glad that the noble Lord has put on record that the question about underlying entitlement ...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 732 c471GC (Link to this contribution) That is right.

Baroness Meacher | 732 c444GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have not prepared any comments on this amendment, but it seems to me to be of enormous i...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 732 c444GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, briefly, I also support what my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham said. It clearly makes sense ...

Lord Ramsbotham | 732 c442-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment has its genesis as long ago as 1996. As Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Pr...

Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 732 c445-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my role in this Grand Committee has been very much in the light of that line from Milton: ...

Earl of Listowel | 732 c446GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will speak briefly to support my noble friend and also to ask whether, if there is some ...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c445GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, has made a very powerful case, particularly for those ser...

Lord Ramsbotham | 732 c445GC (Link to this contribution) Thank you very much. I am glad that the noble Baroness raised that point. It reinforces something th...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c450GC (Link to this contribution) Regarding the payment on account, I do not know whether it is exactly the way to go forward, but I t...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 732 c446-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as I have often said, my education on these issues has grown thanks to the Minister, but I...

Lord Freud | 732 c448-50GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have listened with interest to the noble Lord’s remarks and acknowledge his expertise on...

Lord Freud | 732 c450GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there are two things here: budgeting advances and a process of how we move people on to th...

Lord Ramsbotham | 732 c450GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply and I also thank those who have contributed to the deb...

Baroness Meacher | 732 c451-3GC (Link to this contribution) I think I slightly missed my cue. I apologise. I rise on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Tho...

Lord De Mauley | 732 c453-5GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, has eloquently explained her concerns and those of her n...

Baroness Meacher | 732 c455GC (Link to this contribution) It seems to me that this is a tricky subject area. I am struggling as regards what benefit there mig...

Lord De Mauley | 732 c455GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are not trying to introduce a new stage—reconsideration and appeal have existed before—...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c455-6GC (Link to this contribution) I understand the thrust of the point the noble Lord has just made but I am also trying to understand...

Lord De Mauley | 732 c456GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to noble Lords for allowing me the opportunity to clarify that. It is important to the...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c456GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for that and very happy to deal with that matter through corresponde...

Baroness Drake | 732 c457GC (Link to this contribution) If there is an intention to put much more emphasis into making the reconsideration stage effective a...

Lord De Mauley | 732 c457GC (Link to this contribution) It will not be an independent process but it will be monitored closely in the department.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c456-7GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister is being very helpful on this but I want to go back to the point made by my noble frien...

Lord De Mauley | 732 c457GC (Link to this contribution) I understand what the noble Baroness wants and I am grateful to her for allowing me to write.

Lord De Mauley | 732 c456GC (Link to this contribution) I do not have an answer for the noble Lord. He is right to raise this issue. Perhaps I may include t...

Baroness Hollins | 732 c461-3GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 103ZA, which is in my name. I am grateful to the noble Barone...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c458-60GC (Link to this contribution) In moving Amendment 103ZZZA I shall speak also in support of Amendment 103ZA tabled in the name of t...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 732 c460-1GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the case that the noble Baroness has made. I am particularly interested in the a...

Baroness Meacher | 732 c457GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that full response and the detailed explanations about a number of these tr...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c457GC (Link to this contribution) 103ZZZA: Clause 102, Page 68, line 25, at end insert— ““(8) For the purposes of this section, ““enti...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 732 c464-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as has been set out my noble friends and other noble Baronesses, the amendments relate to ...

Lord Freud | 732 c466-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am delighted to hear such full-hearted support for monthly payments. First, I would like...

Baroness Meacher | 732 c468GC (Link to this contribution) Will the code of practice be available to us before Report so that we know whether we have a reasona...

Lord Freud | 732 c468GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, I am pleased to confirm that it will be available in draft. I want to avoid the cost of printin...

Baroness Healy of Primrose Hill | 732 c463-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will also speak to Amendment 103ZA. I will be brief. It may appear overly generous on th...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c464GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend Lady Hayter is going to do Front-Bench duty on this group of amendments. I...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c468GC (Link to this contribution) I realise that the Minister is going fast, but let us be quite clear. In the past, and I stand to be...

Lord Freud | 732 c468GC (Link to this contribution) I am going to come on to that point, which is critical. Although the starting point for overpayment ...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c468GC (Link to this contribution) The point is that under the previous system the recipient determined what would happen. What the Min...

Lord Freud | 732 c469GC (Link to this contribution) No. I think what I said is that if the debtor considers that they are in hardship, they can say that...

Lord Freud | 732 c441GC (Link to this contribution) In the interests of time, I can give an assurance that there is nothing extra to worry about.

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c441GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I imagine that this will be extremely brief. This is a genuinely probing amendment on a po...

Lord Ramsbotham | 732 c442GC (Link to this contribution) 103: After Clause 98, insert the following new Clause— ““Benefits payments to prisoners (1) Regulati...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c441GC (Link to this contribution) Nothing extra to worry about is good enough to worry about with this Bill. I am grateful for that. P...

Baroness Sherlock | 732 c439GC (Link to this contribution) This is the last time I shall intervene, I promise—and that is a strong promise rather than a weak o...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c441GC (Link to this contribution) 102C: Clause 98, page 65, line 25, leave out subsection (2)

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 732 c439-41GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his responses, although I may not like their content. I also thank the nobl...

Lord Freud | 732 c439GC (Link to this contribution) On the first question, I think we should look at this rather differently. It is one payment to the h...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c439GC (Link to this contribution) To save the Minister jumping up and down, I asked him a specific question about monitoring the impac...

Subjects

Children

Benefits rules

Women

Housing benefit

Jobseeker's allowance

Income support

Overpayments

Offenders

Maintenance

Payments

Prisoners