UK Parliament / Open data

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate on bills and Committee proceeding on Tuesday, 8 November 2011, in the House of Lords.
Welfare Reform Bill. Lords committee stage eleventh day. Clauses 52 and 53 agreed to as amended. Grand Committee held in Committee Room 4A.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
732 c1-60GC 
Session
2010-12
Department
Department for Work and Pensions
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items
Welfare Reform Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 75-EN also published.
Thursday, 16 June 2011
Bills
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c56-7GC (Link to this contribution) I wanted to say only that I support the very moving amendments of my noble friend Lady Lister and th...
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c51GC (Link to this contribution) 76ZA: Clause 52, leave out Clause 52 and insert the following new Clause— ““Condition relating to yo...

Show all contributions (153)
Lord Freud | 732 c46-7GC (Link to this contribution) I feel drawn to say, in response to the noble Baroness, that I was very happy with how the amendment...
Lord Freud | 732 c49GC (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord would like me to, I can give him a little information on that. The latest data sho...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c48-9GC (Link to this contribution) Driven by bankers—thankfully not accountants. With great respect, I normally find the Minister convi...
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c45GC (Link to this contribution) But this is someone who is going into the WRAG group, so they are getting only a year's contributory...
Baroness Meacher | 732 c16-9GC (Link to this contribution) I rise to speak to Amendments 71M, 71N, 71P, 72A and 73. First, I thank the noble Lord, Lord German,...
Lord Freud | 732 c45GC (Link to this contribution) The assessment phase would last beyond 13 weeks. It can sometimes be a long period, but claimants ar...
Lord Freud | 732 c41GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I know that this is a very emotive matter and I have said that we are looking very closely...
Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 732 c1-2GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before I call the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, can I point out that within this gro...
Lord Freud | 732 c42GC (Link to this contribution) I will refer to it in a minute. Let me gather my forces. I come to the point made by the noble Baron...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c36GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry but I thought the noble Lord, in responding earlier, said that there were easements to ad...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c30GC (Link to this contribution) Do those interesting figures mean that by 2020 the figure could be expected to be below, say, £50 mi...
Lord Freud | 732 c31GC (Link to this contribution) Although we have what seems to be a rather modest level of primary benefit, whether it is JSA or ESA...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c57GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on this occasion I am happy to be at one with my noble friend Lady Lister and the noble Lo...
Earl of Listowel | 732 c57GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, briefly, I join in the request for the Minister to think very carefully about these matter...
Lord Patel | 732 c54-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, but I would also remove ...
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c59-60GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps it is the lateness of the hour but I did not think that the Minister read his brie...
Lord Freud | 732 c57-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall briefly explain what the existing rules are for young people. Special conditions f...
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c51-4GC (Link to this contribution) I rise to speak relatively briefly, the Committee will be relieved to hear, to move the amendment an...
Lord Freud | 732 c50GC (Link to this contribution) 76: Clause 52, page 37, line 10, leave out subsection (5) and insert— ““(5) In calculating for the p...
Lord Freud | 732 c60GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until Thursday at 2 pm.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c60GC (Link to this contribution) A margin of error—I thank my noble friend. We are told that this is not about saving money. Therefor...
Lord McAvoy | 732 c46GC (Link to this contribution) I am not as sympathetic as the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, on this because we co-operated in gettin...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c46GC (Link to this contribution) I wonder if my noble friend will allow me to ask him a question? Does he not agree that this shows t...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c46GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for his very extensive reply dealing with a whole host of interruptio...
Lord Freud | 732 c46GC (Link to this contribution) I have to admit that I am not particularly happy about the assessment phase of ESA and how it is wor...
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c46GC (Link to this contribution) What is the principal reason for that? How does the Minister justify it?
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c46GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend’s point is entirely valid. You are nominally, on paper, entitled to 12 months of the...
Lord Freud | 732 c45GC (Link to this contribution) Whether it is confused or not, the position is that, when you are claiming the ESA rate, the first 1...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c45GC (Link to this contribution) Forgive me, but that seems to be a very confused position.
Lord Freud | 732 c49GC (Link to this contribution) The standard position on the work programme is that people whose prognosis goes into the three-month...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c49GC (Link to this contribution) Is it not the case that the same prognosis is used for remuneration of providers in the work program...
Lord Freud | 732 c50GC (Link to this contribution) 72: Clause 51, page 36, leave out lines 31 to 35 and insert— ““(3) In calculating for the purposes o...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c49-50GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I might move on. The noble Lord has stacked up the costs of these various amendments. Howeve...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c47-8GC (Link to this contribution) To satisfy both my noble friends, there is a balance to be struck between making decent progress on ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c47GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness the Deputy Chairman of Committees is absolutely right, but you do have to lead on...
Countess of Mar | 732 c47GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if I could offer some guidance, the groupings are informal and noble Lords are perfectly a...
Lord Freud | 732 c44GC (Link to this contribution) The reason is that we never intended to take it out in the first place. If someone is waiting to go ...
Lord Freud | 732 c45GC (Link to this contribution) It is interesting that noble Lords are looking at the assessment phase as a different benefit, which...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c43GC (Link to this contribution) These figures seem deeply implausible to me, but we will work on them. Thank you.
Lord Freud | 732 c43-4GC (Link to this contribution) Additionally, the amendment would likely weaken the financial incentive for a benefit claimant’s par...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c44GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry; the Minister said £5 billion went through the individual years. My figures add up to £3....
Lord Freud | 732 c44GC (Link to this contribution) Well, I make it nearly £5 billion to 2016-17.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c44GC (Link to this contribution) That is £420 million, £780 million, £1,090 million and £1,380 million.
Lord Freud | 732 c44GC (Link to this contribution) You missed out £1,330 million. I have £420 million, £780 million, £1,090 million, £1,330 million and...
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c44GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise if I missed this because I know that the Minister has had an awful lot of ground to cove...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c45GC (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister saying that after 13 weeks you get paid a higher rate even if you have not been asse...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c45GC (Link to this contribution) You might as well be on JSA and be done with it.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c45GC (Link to this contribution) Forgive me if I am wrong and I expose the frailness of my knowledge of social security, but I though...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c45GC (Link to this contribution) I can support my noble friend: as I understand it, people get the basic JSA rate in the assessment p...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c45GC (Link to this contribution) Surely that is not right. It is backdated to the end of the assessment period?
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c45GC (Link to this contribution) Is the noble Lord saying that you can get backdated money for the assessment period?
Lord Freud | 732 c45GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, that is precisely the position.
Lord Freud | 732 c42GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, at that kind of annual cost this really is an expensive amendment. Whereas one can clearly...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c42GC (Link to this contribution) Is it therefore also net of the actual disregard that people will get, which will be £20 plus possib...
Lord Freud | 732 c42GC (Link to this contribution) We have done a relatively simple sum on this and this is the change. We have not rebuilt the whole s...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c42GC (Link to this contribution) In that case, before the Minister goes on to a different point, why does he think that the situation...
Lord Freud | 732 c42GC (Link to this contribution) We have put it on top of that £10 disregard.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c41GC (Link to this contribution) Returning to the previous point on Amendment 75A, will the Minister confirm, for clarity, that the f...
Lord Freud | 732 c41GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, it applies to this amendment only.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c41GC (Link to this contribution) Therefore, having this exclusion for this group would cost £500 million a year with no knock-on cons...
Lord Patel | 732 c41GC (Link to this contribution) Earlier the question was asked if we could have a definition of ““terminally ill””. I do not think t...
Lord Freud | 732 c43GC (Link to this contribution) Yes. This is the ESA income-related claimants. I think that has a £500 million average cost per year...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c43GC (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister saying that the £500 million cost of Amendment 75A exceeds the total amount of savin...
Lord Freud | 732 c43GC (Link to this contribution) They are the AME savings from Clause 51. The £500 million cost that we are talking about of this ame...
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c43GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his answer, for I realise it is slightly off the main amendments, but I am ...
Lord Freud | 732 c43GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have had this discussion before. I come back to the point that one of the most interest...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c42GC (Link to this contribution) It cannot possibly be. You cannot have £500 million a year and £1.7 billion in total. That does not ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c42GC (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister then tell us what the total saving on the ESA is going to be overall so that we can...
Lord Freud | 732 c42GC (Link to this contribution) Yes. I am speaking slightly from memory but the running rate is about £1.7 billion a year. I am sorr...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c40GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but could someone be diagnosed as terminally ill as a result of the biopsy and be given ...
Lord Freud | 732 c40GC (Link to this contribution) That is correct. That is the current position but the reality is that the treatment provision is lik...
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c39GC (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister explain what this preparation is supposed to be? How do you prepare for the loss of...
Lord Freud | 732 c39-40GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, one of the clear preparations is to understand whether you are now entitled instead to inc...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 732 c39GC (Link to this contribution) Can I just make a point? As to the Minister’s explanation of when things start from, this announceme...
Lord Freud | 732 c39GC (Link to this contribution) Well, my Lords, what was written in the document that my noble friend Lady Thomas referred to was po...
Baroness Meacher | 732 c39GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may suggest that the Budget is a completely different kettle of fish, because you absolute...
Lord Freud | 732 c39GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the accepted convention on retrospection is that it applies from the announcement of a mea...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c38-9GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may add to the Minister’s woes. He will no doubt be aware that previous Administ...
Baroness Meacher | 732 c38GC (Link to this contribution) Can I just raise a question? The Minister talks about the unfairness about those in the future and t...
Lord German | 732 c19GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 75A in my name. I start by saying that the important thing is t...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c19-20GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but if the process is that when someone is put into the work...
Lord German | 732 c20-2GC (Link to this contribution) It is a point of assessment, but the problem is that people’s medical conditions can alter—they can ...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 732 c22GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord sits down, he said that there was a sense that the work capacity assessment ne...
Lord German | 732 c22GC (Link to this contribution) I can answer that question by simply stating that the work capability assessment, if done accurately...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c22-4GC (Link to this contribution) I shall be brief because we have had some very full and powerful speeches from people who are intima...
Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen | 732 c24GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may explain why I am briefly entering the Bill at this stage. I did not speak at...
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 732 c24-7GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not replying on behalf of the Front Bench at this stage. My noble friend Lord McKenzi...
Lord Freud | 732 c28GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I had just begun to address the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, on natio...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c28GC (Link to this contribution) If the Minister has moved on from national insurance, perhaps he might just address this point of ci...
Lord Freud | 732 c27-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I must start off by saying that the contributions of noble Lords today is highly informed ...
Lord Freud | 732 c29GC (Link to this contribution) No, that is the total up to 2016-17—a roll-up.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c28GC (Link to this contribution) I shall ask the Minister another question, so that he can get his breath back. I very much welcome w...
Lord Freud | 732 c28-9GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, clearly, the detailed mechanics of that is something that we will need to work out and set...
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 732 c29GC (Link to this contribution) I think that the noble Lord wanted a big figure.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c29GC (Link to this contribution) It would be more helpful and reasonable if we had annual figures, not roll-up figures.
Lord Freud | 732 c29GC (Link to this contribution) I will be supplying annual figures later on. I wanted a single figure.
Lord Freud | 732 c1GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thought it would be convenient to touch on the timetable. There has been discussion betw...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c1GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Freud, for running through that timetable. Our Front Bench is...
Baroness Gould of Potternewton | 732 c1GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, may I remind you of the new procedure during Grand Committee on this Bill for Divisions in...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c2-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in speaking to Amendment 71M, I shall speak also to Amendment 71P. I shall speak to the ot...
Lord Wigley | 732 c4-5GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I must say that I have considerable reservations about this clause in general, and these a...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c2GC (Link to this contribution) 71M: Clause 51, page 36, line 19, leave out ““365 days”” and insert ““a prescribed number of days wh...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 732 c1GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is incredibly helpful for those of us on the Cross Benches to hear from the Minister wh...
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c15-6GC (Link to this contribution) I was just quoting from a letter I received from a 50 year-old woman with complex mental health prob...
Lord Patel | 732 c8-11GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have supported my amendments. There are three amendments in my nam...
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c11-5GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am pleased to rise in support of the vital amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Pat...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 732 c5-7GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have the second amendment in this group, Amendment 71N. It is a big and complicated grou...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 732 c7-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, at this stage, I am not going to go into all the arguments about the time-limiting of ESA ...
Lord Freud | 732 c33GC (Link to this contribution) I hear the point being made by the noble Baroness. What we are looking at in the WCA, in particular ...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 732 c33-4GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may make a small point before we move off this issue completely. I am also concerned about...
Lord Freud | 732 c34GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is a little premature. It is literally too early to look at the timetable of introduc...
Baroness Wilkins | 732 c34GC (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister also accept that any recommendations made by Professor Harrington will take some t...
Lord Freud | 732 c34-5GC (Link to this contribution) No, let me make that clear. I will take the points one by one. Professor Harrington is looking very...
Lord Patel | 732 c34GC (Link to this contribution) Sorry to disturb the Minister’s train of thought. I am grateful for the comments he made earlier, an...
Lord Freud | 732 c35-6GC (Link to this contribution) I will come back to that issue and argue strongly that there is no retrospection. I will make that a...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c35GC (Link to this contribution) What the Minister is saying, which is a welcome elaboration of policy, is that new entrants into the...
Lord Freud | 732 c36GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness has got that absolutely right. It is both for people who are currently on income-...
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c36GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister. I am pleased to hear that. So that I am absolutely sure that I have understood...
Lord Freud | 732 c36GC (Link to this contribution) No, that is not what I am saying. The noble Lord’s amendment raises the example of someone who has b...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c36GC (Link to this contribution) I thought the Minister said in his earlier remarks that, effectively, these things did not need the ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c37GC (Link to this contribution) I am now completely baffled. I thought the argument was that if somebody had not exhausted their tim...
Lord Freud | 732 c36-7GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, people in the WRAG who have gone through their time-limited period do not then have a righ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c36GC (Link to this contribution) Forgive me, but that means that people in the support group are disadvantaged by these provisions, c...
Lord Freud | 732 c36GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am convinced that I did not say that this particular easement was built in. I was talkin...
Lord Freud | 732 c37-8GC (Link to this contribution) Moving swiftly on—Amendments 72A and 73 exclude from time-limiting any days contributory ESA claiman...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c37GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps we should have a tea break. The votes were so demanding that we have not had time for one.
Lord Freud | 732 c37GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, clearly, they can use up time that they have not used. Therefore, if you are nine months d...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c30GC (Link to this contribution) That is the point that we are making, I think.
Lord Freud | 732 c30GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as noble Lords know, direct comparisons of systems are terribly difficult to make.
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 732 c30GC (Link to this contribution) I wish to be sure that I understand what the Minister has just said. He said that there are two reas...
Lord Freud | 732 c30GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, one can clearly see the process here, as you move through the bulge, of stopping as you ta...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c30GC (Link to this contribution) I think that the noble Lord will also note from comparative research that their replacement earnings...
Lord Freud | 732 c30GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, no. I am making a different argument here. It is an argument about cost. However, I will c...
Lord Freud | 732 c29-30GC (Link to this contribution) It is a single figure. We believe that our one-year time limit is not arbitrary; rather, it strikes ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c30GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister accepts that point that it looks as though there is a reverse bell curve here. It would...
Lord Freud | 732 c30GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not sure what the extrapolation would be. Those are the figures we have. If I have a ...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 732 c33GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may reassure the noble Lord that there are many people who would not be in the support gro...
Lord Freud | 732 c32-3GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, let me come back to that. It is to do with the debate about who should be in the unlimited...
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c32GC (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister acknowledge the point that has been made by several noble Lords? Some people will ...
Lord Freud | 732 c32GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall come to the point about cancer, which is clearly very important. The powerful spee...
Lord McAvoy | 732 c31-2GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, who has given way a lot, as we all recognise. However, I am sure he...
Lord Freud | 732 c31GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think that we could debate this issue for a long time. The point that I am simply trying...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c31GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to intervene again but this is Committee stage. The point there is precisely the aim behi...
Lord Freud | 732 c31GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in practice, other countries in northern Europe, as noble Lords will know, have a very muc...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c31GC (Link to this contribution) That may well be right and I would not disagree with the noble Lord’s point about time and the compa...
Subjects
Disability
Disability living allowance
Death
Cancer
Employment
Jobseeker's allowance
Health
Earnings rules
Low incomes
National insurance contributions
Palliative care
Social security benefits
Welfare tax credits
Young people
Employment and support allowance
Universal credit
Legislation
Welfare Reform Bill 2010-12
Link
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