UK Parliament / Open data

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate on bills and Committee proceeding on Tuesday, 1 November 2011, in the House of Lords.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
731 c405-56GC 
Session
2010-12
Department
Department for Work and Pensions
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items
Welfare Reform Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 75-EN also published.
Thursday, 16 June 2011
Bills
House of Lords
Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. Seventeenth report on: Armed Forces Bill; Welfare Reform Bill; Scotland Bill; Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill - Government response. (Lords Minutes).
Wednesday, 13 July 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 731 c411-2GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank all the noble lords who have spoken in support of this amendment and who have help...
Lord Freud | 731 c408GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we recognise the value of further education and training. In England, the Department for E...

Show all contributions (143)
Lord De Mauley | 731 c456GC (Link to this contribution) I hope noble Lords would agree that this might be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn u...
Lord Boswell of Aynho | 731 c410GC (Link to this contribution) Further to that intervention, will the Minister also comment on the thought that occurs to me? It is...
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 731 c405GC (Link to this contribution) 51EA: Clause 22, page 10, line 32, at end insert— ““(4) Prescribed circumstances should include a cl...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 731 c423GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could suggest to the Minister that the most successful use of sanctions is when there is a...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 731 c425-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is a probing amendment in respect of hardship payments generally and issues around re...
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 731 c424GC (Link to this contribution) Is my noble friend’s point not that it is at the point where someone has said they will engage with ...
Lord Freud | 731 c424GC (Link to this contribution) I think that I can give good news and bad news. There are two issues here. The first is the person w...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 731 c426-7GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am trying hard to say nothing from this end of the table because it is important to make...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 731 c437-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 52BD in this group, about disabled claimants. If the noble Baro...
Lord Wigley | 731 c454GC (Link to this contribution) To follow that point through a little, I understood that the intention was not to take the circumsta...
Lord Freud | 731 c454GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sorry. I probably broadened the point that should have remained narrow. When two peop...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 731 c455GC (Link to this contribution) I do not usually come to the Minister’s aid but if you have two people in business together, that wo...
Lord Freud | 731 c455GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is one area where a single earner disregard makes life rather easy. I hope that we wi...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 731 c455GC (Link to this contribution) Can I just make one other point? It is wrong of us to press the Minister as I know that this is embr...
Lord Freud | 731 c455GC (Link to this contribution) It is clear that we cannot use real-time information for the self-employed. It is another system. It...
Lord Wigley | 731 c455GC (Link to this contribution) A disabled person might have feared going self-employed in the past because of the possibility of lo...
Lord Freud | 731 c455-6GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, the system is absolutely straightforward for a disabled person who goes into employment, where ...
Baroness Donaghy | 731 c456GC (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to the noble Lords who took part in this discussion—the noble Lord, Lord Wig...
Lord Freud | 731 c411GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are getting into philosophy here. I accept the point and have always been uncomfortable...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 731 c410-1GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like to add a further comment to the noble Lord’s open-mindedness on this, which i...
Lord Freud | 731 c410GC (Link to this contribution) I will take that on board. This is a very important point. It is not one that I would cavalierly dis...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 731 c415GC (Link to this contribution) Is there a disability employment adviser in every Jobcentre Plus office? What training do disability...
Lord Boswell of Aynho | 731 c413-5GC (Link to this contribution) I want to speak briefly to the amendments in the order in which the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, raise...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 731 c412-3GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move Amendment 51FZB and speak to the other amendments in this group standing in ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 731 c412GC (Link to this contribution) 51FZB: Clause 26, page 12, line 12, at end insert— ““( ) With respect to claimants who have disabili...
Baroness Meacher | 731 c410GC (Link to this contribution) Would the Minister take this away and think about how to word the legislation here and at DWP in ord...
Lord Freud | 731 c410GC (Link to this contribution) There is a lot of change going on in this area, as noble Lords will know. We are committed to pickin...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 731 c407-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will speak briefly in support of the thrust of the amendment. It raises issues about the...
Lord Freud | 731 c408GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, my Lords, I am pleased to confirm that it is our intention to maintain those exemptions.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 731 c408GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to intervene so early, but unless I am badly out of date, there are two further circumsta...
Lord Freud | 731 c409GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, I am trying to drive to that point, if I am allowed to give the full picture. I was trying to d...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 731 c408GC (Link to this contribution) Forgive me. Would not the first of those neatly fit my noble friend's concerns?
Baroness Sherlock | 731 c410GC (Link to this contribution) I will focus on another point. Would the Minister mind answering the two points together? I am inter...
Baroness Meacher | 731 c409GC (Link to this contribution) May I interrupt the Minister for a second? He says that this will enable these people to get into wo...
Baroness Meacher | 731 c407GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support Amendment 51EA moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister. I was impressed when th...
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 731 c405-7GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 71JA. These amendments have been tabled with the assistanc...
Bishop of Bath and Wells | 731 c415GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I enter the debate with a little trepidation. Like other Members of this Committee, I am s...
Lord Freud | 731 c415GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, currently when a single JSA claimant is sanctioned we stop payment of the entire benefit, ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 731 c415GC (Link to this contribution) If the Minister will permit me, is that not simply because the housing component is added in as part...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 731 c417GC (Link to this contribution) May I add to that? I was going to wait until the Minister finished, but I wish to add two points whi...
Lord Freud | 731 c417-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, let me deal with the questions asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, straight away. Cl...
Lord Boswell of Aynho | 731 c418GC (Link to this contribution) As I read my noble friend, he is saying that if a decision-maker were considering the case of a pers...
Lord Freud | 731 c415-6GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, the noble Lord has got it precisely right and I am grateful to him for summarising it for me. W...
Lord Boswell of Aynho | 731 c416GC (Link to this contribution) If there is repeat offending and therefore a series of sanctions is imposed, can that extend beyond ...
Lord Freud | 731 c416GC (Link to this contribution) In the way it is structured, there is a maximum if you are on a particular level. It absorbs the oth...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 731 c416-7GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that the Minister will forgive me for interrupting. He has painted a very clear picture where...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 731 c448GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have been fascinated by the wide range of issues and figures that we have had to digest....
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 731 c453GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wonder if the Minister can help us further. In a situation where you have a start-up, wh...
Lord Freud | 731 c452-3GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, because universal credit is a benefit for people in and out of work, the issues of self-em...
Viscount Ullswater | 731 c452GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there is a Division in the House. The Committee will adjourn for 10 minutes. Sitting was ...
Lord Freud | 731 c452GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, after spending four years writing the Lex column, I am absolutely aware that I cannot answ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 731 c451-2GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the very powerful case that my noble friend Lady Donaghy made, and what the nobl...
Lord Wigley | 731 c451GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I give enthusiastic support not only to the amendment but also to the direction in which t...
Baroness Donaghy | 731 c448-51GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the purpose of this amendment is to recognise the particular needs of the self-employed. I...
Baroness Donaghy | 731 c448GC (Link to this contribution) 52BA: Schedule 1, page 107, line 20, at end insert ““where the Secretary of State has reason to beli...
Lord Freud | 731 c453GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord makes a very important point and it is related to the point of the noble Ba...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 731 c447GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister has been very full in his efforts to answer our questions. Could he have his staff prep...
Lord Freud | 731 c447GC (Link to this contribution) I shall try to answer the questions. To pick up the point from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, ther...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 731 c446-7GC (Link to this contribution) May I interrupt the noble Baroness at this point? I would like to ask my noble friend about the new ...
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 731 c446GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may ask a couple more questions. I think that the Minister said that the figure I used of ...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 731 c447GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this has been an interesting and extremely wide-ranging—
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 731 c447GC (Link to this contribution) My second point is that the question that was not asked is why there is no additional amount of disr...
Lord Freud | 731 c448GC (Link to this contribution) I cannot absolutely commit to that, mainly because I have a department working at full tilt. However...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 731 c448GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord because it is an issue that is dear to their Lordships’ hearts.
Lord McAvoy | 731 c453GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on the small businesses aspect—and I declare an interest as I am ““lucky”” to own a public...
Lord Freud | 731 c454GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am looking forward to my invitation to the McAvoy public house. I hope that it is called...
Lord McAvoy | 731 c453GC (Link to this contribution) Most are tight-fisted so do not think you will get a free drink. What information is needed, and whe...
Lord Freud | 731 c454GC (Link to this contribution) And I hope that it has a nice picture of him. I look forward to going there.
Lord Freud | 731 c454GC (Link to this contribution) The basic way to get information from the self-employed is this: they will put in the information in...
Lord McAvoy | 731 c454GC (Link to this contribution) You will need a Labour Party card to get in.
Lord Freud | 731 c454GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, universal credit is particularly well suited to that situation because it is a household i...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 731 c454GC (Link to this contribution) Something has been puzzling me. We are talking about self-employed as if it were a self-employed sin...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 731 c419GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I remain worried by the point that was raised about a basic understanding of what I call t...
Lord Freud | 731 c419GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is important that the coalface does not do the sanctioning. It is important that there ...
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 731 c419-20GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my attention may have strayed, but did the Minister answer the question of the noble Lord,...
Lord Freud | 731 c420GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the press reports were about the level of deductions to pay fines and whether the current ...
Baroness Sherlock | 731 c420GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I want to ask the Minister two questions. The first is related to the questions asked by m...
Baroness Sherlock | 731 c420GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure I can, frankly, but maybe Hansard can. I talk too quickly even for myself sometimes. ...
Lord Freud | 731 c421GC (Link to this contribution) I shall deal with the second point from the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, first. The point that nob...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 731 c421-2GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for his detailed response. I am comforted—indeed, I recognise some of...
Lord Freud | 731 c418-9GC (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend for looking for clarity. There is a layer of protections here. We have a hig...
Lord Freud | 731 c423GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are talking about a sanction that, to put it bluntly, is there as a deterrent. We are n...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 731 c423GC (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Lord not accept the principle that if you want to change behaviour, you want that beh...
Lord Freud | 731 c422-3GC (Link to this contribution) This is an extraordinarily small group. In extremes, we would look to run to more sanctions on top. ...
Lord Freud | 731 c422GC (Link to this contribution) We would still expect them to comply with the conditionality regime.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 731 c422GC (Link to this contribution) That might be the expectation, but how would they be sanctioned?
Lord Freud | 731 c422GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, they may need advocacy but they can find supporters and bring them along. However, it is n...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 731 c422GC (Link to this contribution) Did the noble Lord say that for somebody who was sanctioned, for example by the removal of benefit f...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 731 c422GC (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Lord accept that people in those circumstances may need advocacy, which is being with...
Lord Freud | 731 c422GC (Link to this contribution) First, one of the drivers of the increase in sanctions was the introduction and phased roll-out firs...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 731 c424-5GC (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friends for raising additional issues, following on from our earlier debate. My nob...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 731 c425GC (Link to this contribution) 51FC: Clause 28, page 14, line 20, leave out paragraph (f)
Baroness Sherlock | 731 c423-4GC (Link to this contribution) This is the last time that I shall intervene; I shall stop. I want to come back to a point raised in...
Lord Boswell of Aynho | 731 c424GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry for the Minister being put under, I think, unreasonable sanctions or pressure himself, bu...
Lord Freud | 731 c423GC (Link to this contribution) Clearly, I am interested in behaviour change. However, I would hope that before we get into these re...
Lord Freud | 731 c423GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are moving now into the area of ill health. That is where decision-makers come in and l...
Baroness Sherlock | 731 c423GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may try to understand this. I apologise if I have not grasped it until now. Let us assume ...
Lord Freud | 731 c428-9GC (Link to this contribution) At the risk of being a little repetitious, I will try to summarise. Obviously, hardship payments are...
Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen | 731 c428GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think that the principals are here, so can we return to the Bill? Does the noble Barones...
Countess of Mar | 731 c428GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the noble Baroness. There is a Division in the House. I suggest that those w...
Lord Freud | 731 c429GC (Link to this contribution) I cannot let the Prime Minister go undefended. He was emphasising the fact that unless a financial p...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 731 c429GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I welcome the Minister's response. I think it indicates some going slow on the issue, and ...
Lord Freud | 731 c427-8GC (Link to this contribution) We are looking carefully at the system of hardship payments we want to put in place under universal ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 731 c428GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, could I press the Minister on this? I was struck by his version of what a hardship payment...
Baroness Meacher | 731 c427GC (Link to this contribution) I rise very briefly to add my support to this. Many years ago, I wrote a book about the withdrawal o...
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 731 c431-2GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Committee will know that my noble friend Lord McKenzie and I have added our names to t...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 731 c431GC (Link to this contribution) Like other noble Lords, I very much welcome this. The problem in the past has always been the length...
Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen | 731 c433GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there is another Division in the House. The Committee will report back at 17.43 precisely....
Lord Freud | 731 c432-3GC (Link to this contribution) I thank noble Lords for their support. At this stage we are taking legislative powers in order to be...
Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen | 731 c433GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think that all the important people are back.
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 731 c429GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is secure in his position but, to be honest, he is anyway, given all the good work th...
Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 731 c429GC (Link to this contribution) 51G: Clause 30, page 15, line 15, after ““sections”” insert ““11 and””
Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 731 c429-30GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, when I spoke at Second Reading, one point that I made was my deep concern that there could...
Lord Freud | 731 c430-1GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we will ensure that the full universal credit system is extensively tested with claimants ...
Lord Boswell of Aynho | 731 c431GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I warmly support the arguments of the Minister. Might I have an assurance from him that as...
Baroness Meacher | 731 c438-9GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support some of the concerns that have already been raised by other noble Lords. I am no...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 731 c437GC (Link to this contribution) I would like to add to the questions that we will be showering the Minister with on this issue. We a...
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 731 c435-7GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am pleased to support the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Howe of Idlicote. ...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 731 c434GC (Link to this contribution) 52B: Schedule 1, page 107, line 20, at end insert ““and this will include an additional prescribed m...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 731 c434-5GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am delighted to have actually made it. With regard to the previous amendment and the pro...
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 731 c433GC (Link to this contribution) I will just stay standing until my noble friend Lady Howe is here to move her amendment.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 731 c433-4GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps we can ask the Deputy Chairman of Committees to inform the usual channels that it is not pos...
Lord Freud | 731 c433GC (Link to this contribution) I think that I had completed everything I need to say about these piloting powers and ask the noble ...
Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 731 c433GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his response. As he says, it is important that we are able to respond to ch...
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 731 c446GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will raise a couple of points—and not simply to defend my aunt. I said that she worked a...
Lord Freud | 731 c445-6GC (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. We are discussing a framework piece of legislation that will allow us to bring in the re...
Lord Wigley | 731 c446GC (Link to this contribution) I have been mulling over this point. Is the noble Baroness sure that she is not inadvertently mislea...
Lord Freud | 731 c443-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I turn to the example raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister. With great skill she has ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 731 c444GC (Link to this contribution) I still do not understand how she could be expected to add those hours of work to her hours of carin...
Lord Freud | 731 c444GC (Link to this contribution) You do not when there are caring responsibilities. We have discussed this. There is a responsive set...
Baroness Meacher | 731 c444GC (Link to this contribution) Again, will there be flexibility within the legislation? As the Minister said, if the Government pil...
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 731 c439-42GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the explanation that I am most looking forward to from the Minister, having taught us the ...
Lord Freud | 731 c442-3GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we learn more every Sitting. We learn that the mother of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 731 c443GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am following the Minister with as much attention as I can muster on a very complex subje...
Subjects
Disability
Children
Benefits rules
Carers
Council tax
Employment
Jobseeker's allowance
Education
Further education
Exemptions
Earnings rules
Mental illness
Pilot schemes
Low incomes
Lone parents
Social security benefits
Welfare tax credits
Training
Self-employed
Employment and support allowance
Universal credit
Legislation
Welfare Reform Bill 2010-12
Link
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