UK Parliament / Open data

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Debate on bills on Monday, 12 September 2011, in the House of Commons.
Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill. Programme motion (No. 3) on proceedings on consideration of Lords amendments and subsequent stages. Agreed to on question. Consideration of Lords amendments. Lords amendments 1 to 4 and 6 disagreed to, with Lords amendment 1 disagreed to on division (296 votes to 220). Motion that amendments (a) to (d) be made to the Bill in lieu of Lords amendments 1 to 4 and 6 disagreed to, agreed to on division (291 votes to 224). Lords amendments 5 and 7 to 42 agreed to. Lords amendment 43 disagreed to, with amendments (a) and (b) in lieu of Lords amendment 43 disagreed to. Lords amendments 44 to 52, 54, 55, 58 and 60 to 97 and 98 agreed to, with Lords amendment 98 agreed to on division (202 votes to 300). Motion that amendment (a) be made to Lords amendment 163 agreed to on question. Lords amendment 163 agreed to as amended. Lords amendments 99 to 162, 164 to 168, 53, 56, 57, 59, 169 and 170 agreed to on question.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
532 c779-859 
Session
2010-12
Department
Home Office
Legislative stage
Lords amendments
Procedure
Programme motions
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill. Lords amendments. Explanatory Notes Bill 225-EN also published.
Wednesday, 20 July 2011
Bills
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Simon Hart | 532 c789 (Link to this contribution) The Minister will know of the constabulary of Dyfed-Powys police in west Wales. There are probably 1...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c788-9 (Link to this contribution) Surely the hon. Gentleman misses the key point. First, the Mayor should not seek to direct an invest...

Show all contributions (167)
Chris Bryant | 532 c788 (Link to this contribution) Do concentrate! If all of what the Minister says is true—that the police and their operational indep...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c788 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the hon. Gentleman, but I was reading a note and was not properly listening to what h...
Chris Bryant | 532 c788 (Link to this contribution) If what the Minister says is true, how could Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London, say that the phone ...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c788 (Link to this contribution) I will give way quickly to the hon. Gentleman, who can also have a final intervention.
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c787-8 (Link to this contribution) The protocol is intended to govern the relationship and it will be issued by the Home Secretary. The...
Lord Coaker | 532 c790-1 (Link to this contribution) With the indulgence of the House, let me start by endorsing the comments that the Chair of the Home ...
Aidan Burley | 532 c791 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c789-90 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend. We are putting in place very strong accountability arrangements, but al...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c785-6 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I am going to move on. I want to come back to the issue of L...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c786-7 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to disappoint the right hon. Gentleman, but I am not going to make an announcement before...
Keith Vaz | 532 c786 (Link to this contribution) The name of the new Metropolitan police commissioner has been announced as the Minister he has been ...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c785 (Link to this contribution) No, I do not accept what the Opposition have constantly been saying, which is that the overall cost ...
Lord Coaker | 532 c785 (Link to this contribution) The Minister will know that the impact assessment said originally that the cost of elections was £50...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c785 (Link to this contribution) I will come to that issue. However, I will say to the hon. Gentleman now that if the elections were ...
Chris Bryant | 532 c785 (Link to this contribution) I have never supported the politicising of the police, and I will not do so under the Minister's pla...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c787 (Link to this contribution) I give way one last time to the hon. Gentleman.
Mark Tami | 532 c787 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister not accept that somebody standing in an election may well have a programme that wi...
Chris Bryant | 532 c784 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c783 (Link to this contribution) I share the right hon. Gentleman's concern to ensure that we get the protocol right. We have made ve...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c782 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman had been paying attention, he would know that I was talking about the populari...
Keith Vaz | 532 c784 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman may disagree, but the fact that the postponed election will cost £25 millio...
Keith Vaz | 532 c784 (Link to this contribution) The argument over the figure of £100 million will go on, but it is now accepted that the postponed e...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c784 (Link to this contribution) I am just going to make a little more progress. Let me deal with costs, and then I will come back to...
Mark Tami | 532 c784 (Link to this contribution) But why is there a delay? The whole House knows why: it is because the Liberal Democrats do not want...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c784 (Link to this contribution) I will come to that immediately. There will be a one-off additional cost for holding the elections i...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c784 (Link to this contribution) Hon. Members have spent their whole time trying either to stop the reform or to delay it, and now, w...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c780 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 1.
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c780 (Link to this contribution) This Government are determined to swap bureaucratic control of the police for local democratic accou...
Speaker | 532 c780 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to consider Lords amendments 2 to 4 and 6, Government motions to dis...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c781 (Link to this contribution) Although I think there is a serious debate to be had, I disagree with the hon. Gentleman for a numbe...
Chris Bryant | 532 c780-1 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is preaching a great sermon on how everything will be transformed by the creation of co...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c781 (Link to this contribution) We are hardly setting up a bureaucratic system. It is one that involves direct democratic accountabi...
Chris Bryant | 532 c781 (Link to this contribution) What I have found in the past few years in South Wales police is that although it is true that the c...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c781-2 (Link to this contribution) I do not accept that there is a muddle. The right hon. Gentleman will know that it was the previous ...
Alun Michael | 532 c781 (Link to this contribution) I must say that I disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) on the usefulne...
Mark Tami | 532 c782 (Link to this contribution) The Minister states that this whole idea is popular. What does he base that on, because all the info...
Lord Coaker | 532 c792 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that the hon. Gentleman admits it. I have never known anyone vote against their own amendm...
Lord Coaker | 532 c792 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the hon. Gentleman was not just reading that out; he normally does better than simply re...
Aidan Burley | 532 c792 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman says that there is no support for the reform, but let me read him two quotations....
Lord Coaker | 532 c791 (Link to this contribution) I will in a moment; I am just getting going. If the hon. Gentleman lets me, I will make a few points...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c855 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate my hon. Friend's point to the extent that there are two checks in this process: the che...
Dan Rogerson | 532 c849-50 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. She is absolutely right, and that is the reassurance tha...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c853 (Link to this contribution) We are putting in place regulations in relation to the procedures for when a police and crime commis...
Lord Coaker | 532 c853 (Link to this contribution) Should the Government find out that there was a problem with the process in due course, would primar...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c853 (Link to this contribution) We have had a good debate and a rather more technical one on this group of amendments. The hon. Memb...
Mark Reckless | 532 c850-3 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friends the Members for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson) and for Edi...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c854-5 (Link to this contribution) I hope to be able to answer my hon. Friend's question in a moment. I had already sought to addresst...
Mark Reckless | 532 c853-4 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend confirm that what he is saying would apply also to my point? Although the ...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c853 (Link to this contribution) To clarify the matter for the hon. Gentleman, the procedures do not extend to the power of the panel...
Lord Coaker | 532 c853 (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister saying that, if the Government were to decide in due course that a veto power with r...
Mark Reckless | 532 c855 (Link to this contribution) There are two potential issues in the Secretary of State's involvement. One of them is to do with se...
Lord Coaker | 532 c847 (Link to this contribution) I want to know exactly where the Liberal part of the Government stands on this. Can the hon. Gentlem...
Mike Crockart | 532 c847 (Link to this contribution) I will make it very clear that I do not support the hon. Gentleman's proposal, although there is an ...
Dan Rogerson | 532 c847-8 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart), who has fol...
Lord Coaker | 532 c842-4 (Link to this contribution) It is fair to say that a number of the amendments that the Government have accepted improve the Bill...
Mike Crockart | 532 c844-6 (Link to this contribution) I want to speak in favour of a number of amendments. Before doing so, however, I make a plea from th...
Mike Crockart | 532 c846-7 (Link to this contribution) No, those are not the matters that the hon. Gentleman pushed to the vote. In Committee, the hon. Me...
Sarah Newton | 532 c849 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making a comprehensive and thorough argument for the depth of feeling of people in...
Dan Rogerson | 532 c848-9 (Link to this contribution) I defer to the right hon. Gentleman, who has lived and breathed the panels for a long time. As we h...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c826 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I would like to extend that note of commi...
Lord Coaker | 532 c827 (Link to this contribution) I stand by the figure of £37 million, which, from memory, some external consultants came up with. Of...
Stephen Pound | 532 c826 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful. The Minister is entirely right to congratulate Bernard Hogan-Howe, but I am sure that...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c826 (Link to this contribution) In the few minutes remaining, I want to pick up on a few of the points that have been made. First, h...
Graham Stringer | 532 c825-6 (Link to this contribution) I do not disagree with that. The hon. Gentleman makes a clear and explicit point; the point that I w...
Guto Bebb | 532 c825 (Link to this contribution) I commend the hon. Gentleman for making a thoughtful and measured speech, but surely his points are ...
Graham Stringer | 532 c823-5 (Link to this contribution) I was not going to speak in this debate, but so many interesting points have been made that I decide...
Aidan Burley | 532 c823 (Link to this contribution) I thank you for your direction, Mr Deputy Speaker. I shall focus my remarks. In April 2002, the Nati...
Aidan Burley | 532 c822-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady speaks for her part of Staffordshire and I speak for mine. I can tell her that people ...
David Ward | 532 c821 (Link to this contribution) I am beginning to feel sorry for the hon. Gentleman, who seems to live in a really poorly policed ar...
Aidan Burley | 532 c820-1 (Link to this contribution) I am not arguing for that, but speculating how the role of commissioners could develop over time. Th...
Aidan Burley | 532 c821 (Link to this contribution) I am fortunate to live in a very well policed area. Staffordshire has an excellent chief constable. ...
David Ward | 532 c821 (Link to this contribution) Hansard will prove me correct. I think that the hon. Gentleman said ““authorities””, not ““commissio...
Aidan Burley | 532 c821 (Link to this contribution) He has confirmed to 2013. I do not know how long the hon. Gentleman wants him to confirm. On the po...
Joan Walley | 532 c822 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is talking about Staffordshire. People in my part of Staffordshire do not want £1...
Aidan Burley | 532 c821-2 (Link to this contribution) I meant ““commissioners””. In the time left, I would like to deal with a few of the objections rais...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c837-40 (Link to this contribution) There are many amendments to consider, and I shall be as brief as I responsibly can be in taking the...
Speaker | 532 c836 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Lords amendments 7 to 42. Lords amendmen...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c841-2 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to reassure my hon. Friend that were proposals brought forward that did not give that pro...
Sarah Newton | 532 c840-1 (Link to this contribution) I very much appreciate my right hon. Friend's reassurance and his answer to my hon. Friend the Membe...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c827-8 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman really must do better than that; he has been a policing Minister, as I now am. As...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c836 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 5.
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c828 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry; I meant Carl Sargeant. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. In those discussions, I tri...
David Ruffley | 532 c805 (Link to this contribution) Even in Bury St Edmunds, I dare say. Let me repeat the other statistic, because it is quite shocking...
Keith Vaz | 532 c806 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. I thank the Minister for reminding me. I know that he has mentioned it to me before. He is r...
Steve McCabe | 532 c806 (Link to this contribution) There is an issue about money, but does my right hon. Friend share my concern that in the past the G...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 532 c806 (Link to this contribution) I should point out that the protocol was negotiated with the deputy mayor with responsibility for po...
Lord Coaker | 532 c809 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman says that he thinks that would be extremely unlikely, but given the fact that it ...
Simon Hart | 532 c809-10 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a good point, but I am not sure that that necessarily needs to be in the Bi...
Keith Vaz | 532 c806-7 (Link to this contribution) I shall leave it to my hon. Friend to decide what level of turnout is acceptable for the west midlan...
Simon Hart | 532 c807-9 (Link to this contribution) It is always a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz). May I say ho...
Mark Tami | 532 c810 (Link to this contribution) There are constant attacks on the back office, or the middle—a term introduced today—as if these peo...
David Ruffley | 532 c800 (Link to this contribution) I will not take issue with the skewed nature of the wording—““politician”” is often a dirty word. I ...
Steve McCabe | 532 c800 (Link to this contribution) It is true that the members of police authorities are indirectly elected and are party people. Howev...
David Ruffley | 532 c800 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes the reasonable point that these people will fly under party colours. Howeve...
Steve McCabe | 532 c800 (Link to this contribution) I have no doubt that the hon. Gentleman is an extremely diligent MP who does not judge the people wh...
Graham Stringer | 532 c801 (Link to this contribution) I accept the hon. Gentleman's argument that there is a democratic deficit and that that needs to be ...
David Ruffley | 532 c801-2 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. He has huge experience from being leader of one of the great ...
Lord Coaker | 532 c802 (Link to this contribution) Given the hon. Gentleman's experience, I am interested in his view about the unfettered power of the...
David Ruffley | 532 c803-4 (Link to this contribution) My understanding is that that is not in the Bill, but I envisage that the occasions on which a polic...
Caroline Dinenage | 532 c819 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that people feel dissatisfied with the police—unfairly, in many cases—beca...
Aidan Burley | 532 c819 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a good point. For me, the natural corollary of that frustration at not seeing p...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 532 c818 (Link to this contribution) The Government prayed in aid an opinion poll that said that 7% of the people of England did not know...
Aidan Burley | 532 c818-9 (Link to this contribution) I understand that the survey to which the right hon. Gentleman refers was commissioned by the police...
Aidan Burley | 532 c818 (Link to this contribution) Only two Members of the House could intervene and tell me who chairs their police authority, which t...
Lord Coaker | 532 c820 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman arguing for criminal justice commissioners? In other words, does he want local...
Nigel Mills | 532 c819 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can help my hon. Friend with his argument. A person who is minded to complain about Derbys...
Aidan Burley | 532 c819-20 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes my point for me. I would be fascinated to know whether any of the 43 police and...
Simon Hart | 532 c811-2 (Link to this contribution) What emerges from that intervention is that the hon. Gentleman reads Tory leaflets and I do not, and...
Jack Dromey | 532 c812-3 (Link to this contribution) I will be brief, because I know that other hon. Members wish to speak. August reminded us why our p...
Martin Vickers | 532 c813-5 (Link to this contribution) I endorse the opening remarks of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) in as much ...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 532 c815-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to be able to speak to the amendment in my name and the names of my hon. Friends. The ...
Simon Hart | 532 c810-1 (Link to this contribution) I certainly do not think that that is the Government's position. It might be the position taken by s...
Mark Tami | 532 c811 (Link to this contribution) Developing that point, can the hon. Gentleman tell me when he has seen a Tory party leaflet that sta...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 532 c816-7 (Link to this contribution) The effect of the amendment would be to ask the Government to talk to the Assembly and the Welsh Ass...
Aidan Burley | 532 c817-8 (Link to this contribution) You will be pleased to note, Madam Deputy Speaker, that this time I remembered to stand up to be cal...
Mark Tami | 532 c793 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend give way?
Lord Coaker | 532 c792-3 (Link to this contribution) I do not think there has ever been any disagreement, either in Committee or in any of our other deba...
Aidan Burley | 532 c793 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, but he lulls us into thinking that this is a new thing....
Lord Coaker | 532 c793 (Link to this contribution) I said that I would give way to the hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley) first.
Aidan Burley | 532 c794 (Link to this contribution) Could not a local person stand on a platform of cracking down on knife crime in the local area? What...
Lord Coaker | 532 c794 (Link to this contribution) Obviously, people try to influence what the police do. I have no problem with that and, of course, I...
Mark Tami | 532 c794 (Link to this contribution) Before my hon. Friend moves away from specialist units, their work is very important, but the genera...
Lord Coaker | 532 c794 (Link to this contribution) Because the person will have a specific local democratic mandate and will have been elected on certa...
Aidan Burley | 532 c792 (Link to this contribution) I agree with nearly everything that the hon. Gentleman has just said. The point is that there is cro...
Lord Coaker | 532 c794 (Link to this contribution) That is the point I am making. Front-line officers are not just uniformed officers visible on the st...
David Ruffley | 532 c799 (Link to this contribution) I support the Government amendments, and would like to favour the House with some recollections from...
Lord Coaker | 532 c798-9 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend about the logic of the Government arriving at the date of 15 November. I...
Lord Coaker | 532 c799-800 (Link to this contribution) I acknowledge the experience that the hon. Gentleman brings to these debates from his former shadow ...
Steve McCabe | 532 c797 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend think that the Mayor of London has already demonstrated such circumstances in ma...
Lord Coaker | 532 c797 (Link to this contribution) There are a number of possible examples. Let me give the hon. Gentleman one of them. If an election ...
Steve McCabe | 532 c798 (Link to this contribution) If we give the Government the benefit of the doubt and accept that the delay is to allow more time f...
Lord Coaker | 532 c797-8 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend's point speaks for itself. It illustrates some of the problems that can arise in conn...
David Ruffley | 532 c796 (Link to this contribution) Is not the hon. Gentleman doing a disservice to the future police and crime panels? They will doubtl...
Simon Hart | 532 c796 (Link to this contribution) In what circumstances does the hon. Gentleman believe that a police and crime commissioner would go ...
Lord Coaker | 532 c796 (Link to this contribution) Of course they will have the power of voice. I have the power of voice here, but I shall still lose ...
Lord Coaker | 532 c795-6 (Link to this contribution) On behalf of the shadow Home Secretary, myself, and all Members of the House, may I wish Mr Hogan-Ho...
Speaker | 532 c795 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman has been in the House a long time and will recognise that that is not a poi...
Alun Michael | 532 c795 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is good that the Home Secretary has now spoken to the Hou...
Baroness May of Maidenhead | 532 c795 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am tempted to say that there is no need for me to rise to my feet n...
Lord Coaker | 532 c795 (Link to this contribution) I give way to the Home Secretary.
Speaker | 532 c795 (Link to this contribution) Order. It might be helpful if Vernon Coaker gave way to the Home Secretary.
Keith Vaz | 532 c795 (Link to this contribution) Is my hon. Friend as puzzled as I am that although, apparently, the new Metropolitan Police Commissi...
Lord Coaker | 532 c794-5 (Link to this contribution) That is absolutely right. The teamwork, collaboration and partnership working was, I think, one of t...
Alun Michael | 532 c794 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that there is a big difference between this and the approach adopted under...
Keith Vaz | 532 c782-3 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the Minister back to the Dispatch Box after his recent illness. We have missed him. There ...
Lord Coaker | 532 c791-2 (Link to this contribution) Don't worry; I have not forgotten the hon. Gentleman. The same goes for councils. We have just hear...
Speaker | 532 c823 (Link to this contribution) Order. I think that we might be straying a little wide of the mark.
Keith Vaz | 532 c805-6 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds (Mr Ruffley), who is very knowledgeab...
David Ruffley | 532 c800-1 (Link to this contribution) There is a difference here, because we are not talking about having police officers—actual law enfor...
Roger Williams | 532 c816 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will help me by spelling out the effect of his amendment. Would the...
Subjects
Accountability
Devon
Cornwall
Elections
Police
Powers
Metropolitan Police
Wales
London Assembly
Police and crime commissioners
Legislation
Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill 2010-12
Link
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