UK Parliament / Open data

Public Bodies Bill [Lords]

Debate on bills on Tuesday, 12 July 2011, in the House of Commons, led by Lord Maude of Horsham. The answering member was Baroness Jowell.
Public Bodies Bill (HL). Second reading debate. Motion to decline a second reading negatived on division (231 votes to 307). Second reading agreed to on question. Programme motion on proceedings in Publc Bill Committee, on Report and Third reading and any other proceedings agreed to on division (304 votes to 229). Queen's recommendation signified. Money resolution agreed to on question. Ways and means resolution agreed to on question. [Relevant documents: The Fifth Report from the Public Administration Select Committee, Smaller Government: Shrinking the Quango State, HC 537, and the Government response, Cm 8044.]
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
531 c212-80 
Session
2010-12
Department
Cabinet Office
Legislative stage
Second reading
Procedure
Programme motions
Money resolutions
Ways and means resolutions
Queen's recommendation
Reasoned amendments
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Public Bodies Bill (HL). Brought from the Lords. Explanatory Notes Bill 188-EN also published.
Tuesday, 10 May 2011
Bills
House of Commons
Deposited Paper DEP2011-1213
Tuesday, 12 July 2011
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Smaller government: shrinking the quango state. Government response to the Public Administration Select Committee's fifth report of session 2010-11. (HC 537).
Wednesday, 16 March 2011
Command papers
House of Commons
Smaller government: shrinking the quango state. Public Administration Select Committee fifth report with formal minutes, evidence and appendices. Additional written evidence is contained in Volume II, available on the Committee website.
Monday, 20 December 2010
Parliamentary committees
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Speaker | 531 c236;531 (Not in Bound Volume) (Link to this contribution) I call Glyn Davies.
Speaker | 531 c227 (Link to this contribution) Order. As many hon. Members want to catch my eye, I am reducing the time limit to six minutes.

Show all contributions (160)
Bob Ainsworth | 531 c214 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is trying to evade collective responsibility for the decisions that the Government are ...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 531 c214 (Link to this contribution) The office of chief coroner will be brought into existence. It will not be set up in the elaborate w...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 531 c214 (Link to this contribution) Do I have every single detail about every single body contained in the proposals? No I do not. I can...
Helen Goodman | 531 c214-5 (Link to this contribution) While the right hon. Gentleman is talking about salaries, perhaps he will address the abolition of t...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 531 c215 (Link to this contribution) I justify it on the basis that the Government of the hon. Lady's party introduced a minimum wage, wh...
Charlie Elphicke | 531 c214 (Link to this contribution) Surely the concern is not just over the amazingly expensive offices that many quangos like to equip ...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 531 c214 (Link to this contribution) One of the benefits brought about by this Government is to make all that more transparent. We have e...
Sam Gyimah | 531 c215 (Link to this contribution) I fear that the Minister is being led down the path of discussing every public body covered in the B...
Andrew George | 531 c215 (Link to this contribution) The point about the Agricultural Wages Board is not just that it pins down a minimum wage for agricu...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 531 c215 (Link to this contribution) On the hon. Gentleman's point about the Rural Advocate, it seems to me that rural areas are very wel...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 531 c212 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. It seems almost unseemly to move a Second R...
Joan Walley | 531 c212 (Link to this contribution) When the review was carried out, what environmental appraisal was there of the proposals?
Lord Maude of Horsham | 531 c212-3 (Link to this contribution) In conducting the reviews, the Departments will have considered the environmental implications. One ...
Lord Beith | 531 c213 (Link to this contribution) One body that is widely thought to be necessary and desirable is a chief coroner to provide leadersh...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 531 c213 (Link to this contribution) We rather agree with what my right hon. Friend says. There is concern that a whole new apparatus and...
Lord Beamish | 531 c213 (Link to this contribution) What has changed from when the Minister was in opposition, when he voted for the chief coroner and h...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 531 c213 (Link to this contribution) It will cost very much less. The set-up costs for the office of the chief coroner, as planned under ...
Lord Beamish | 531 c213 (Link to this contribution) The Conservative central office spin is wearing a bit thin. Will the Minister break down the costs? ...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 531 c213 (Link to this contribution) I will, of course, ensure that my right hon. and learned Friend, the Lord Chancellor hears what the ...
Speaker | 531 c212 (Link to this contribution) I inform the House that the amendment has been selected. To move the Second Reading, I call the extr...
Baroness Jowell | 531 c223 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has set out the precise nature of the debate that will need to take place in Comm...
Helen Goodman | 531 c223 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that what is exposed by the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Boar...
Andrew George | 531 c223 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the right hon. Lady would agree that rather than trading figures for partisan purposes, ...
Baroness Jowell | 531 c223 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is obviously correct. I intend to make some progress now, but I will come to precisel...
Lord Beamish | 531 c222 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that a lot of what is being proposed is window dressing, in the sens...
Baroness Jowell | 531 c222 (Link to this contribution) I do not necessarily accept that that was the largest reduction. However, devolution was one of the ...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 531 c222 (Link to this contribution) Does the right hon. Lady accept that the biggest reduction in the number of public bodies came throu...
Simon Kirby | 531 c222 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Lady claims that her Government reduced the number of quangos, but actually spending ...
Baroness Jowell | 531 c220-2 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move,"That this House, while agreeing that there needs to be a constant reassessment of the...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 531 c218-20 (Link to this contribution) The functions will continue to exist, but there will be a rationalisation of the landscape of the bo...
Baroness Jowell | 531 c225-6 (Link to this contribution) Yes, we certainly have. I should like to refer the right hon. Gentleman to the programme of reform t...
Baroness Jowell | 531 c226 (Link to this contribution) Let me turn briefly to the Commission for Equality and Human Rights—
Oliver Heald | 531 c224 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Lady give way?
Baroness Jowell | 531 c223-4 (Link to this contribution) I certainly hope that the Minister will accept my invitation to rethink some of the Government's pro...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 531 c225 (Link to this contribution) I want to make it absolutely clear, as I have done before, that these are cumulative administrative ...
Baroness Jowell | 531 c224-5 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman does not mind, I am going to make some progress, as there are lots of Back Ben...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 531 c216-7 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend will forgive me, but I really do need to make progress. A great many Members wish to ...
Charlie Elphicke | 531 c216 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend give way on that point?
Lord Maude of Horsham | 531 c216 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend's point simply amplifies the case for the presumption that we are instituting in the ...
Rehman Chishti | 531 c216 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister. Between 2007 and 2008, public sector organisations spent about £4 mil...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 531 c215 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a very good point. These bodies are rarely discussed in the House, and that is ...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 531 c216 (Link to this contribution) I will give way once more; then I really will need to make progress.
Alun Cairns | 531 c216 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Lord Maude of Horsham | 531 c216 (Link to this contribution) The guidance has been tightened up considerably. Taxpayers find it quite offensive that a body that ...
Gavin Shuker | 531 c218 (Link to this contribution) Further to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowic...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 531 c217-8 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I am going to make progress. I have given way a great deal, a...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 531 c218 (Link to this contribution) I will give way once, if the intervention is on scrutiny.
Lord Maude of Horsham | 531 c218 (Link to this contribution) Powers to amend primary legislation by secondary legislation are not unprecedented. An amendment mad...
Mark Lazarowicz | 531 c218 (Link to this contribution) Although there is no doubt nothing wrong with dealing with some of those bodies by order, can the ri...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 531 c218 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I will make progress.
Jonathan Edwards | 531 c247-8 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that intervention and I look forward to the day when broadcasting is devolved to t...
Elizabeth Truss | 531 c248 (Link to this contribution) It is more than 50 years since the term ““quango”” was first coined in the United States, during whi...
Jonathan Edwards | 531 c246-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that intervention, and the hon. Gentleman leads me on to my next point, which is a...
Guto Bebb | 531 c247 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman mentions the need for funding to be raised from other broadcasters. Does he accep...
Jonathan Edwards | 531 c246 (Link to this contribution) I will answer the hon. Gentleman's question before he asks it: S4C's funding will fall from around £...
Alun Cairns | 531 c246 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, but does he not accept that the outcome leaves S...
Jonathan Edwards | 531 c246 (Link to this contribution) I want to concentrate on the very worrying impact that the Bill will have on S4C, an institution of ...
Alun Cairns | 531 c246 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Lord Beamish | 531 c244 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman will cite examples, I wish he would do his homework. IPSA was supported by Mem...
Alun Cairns | 531 c244-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's intervention, and I accept the point about all-party support,...
Alun Cairns | 531 c244 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, but it was the previous Conservative Gover...
Alun Cairns | 531 c243 (Link to this contribution) Thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this debate, Mr Deputy Speaker. Although, a...
Alun Cairns | 531 c244 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to the hon. Gentleman if he wishes. It is unlikely that Mr Blair and I would agree ...
Lord Beamish | 531 c244 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Gentleman, but the worst culprit for packing quangos was the previous Conserva...
Jon Trickett | 531 c242 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that quite frequently the Government may be judged as culpable in co...
Paul Goggins | 531 c242-3 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a very important point. In December, when this matter was debated in the other ...
Paul Goggins | 531 c243 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. It really is a shabby case. The Government are relying on old ...
Lord Harrington of Watford | 531 c259 (Link to this contribution) As I understand it, agricultural workers are protected by the same rules as everyone else. The minim...
Gavin Shuker | 531 c259 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has asked a straightforward and honest question. I shall go into this in more det...
John McDonnell | 531 c256-7 (Link to this contribution) I want briefly to make two simple but related points. Elected Governments—even unelected coalitions—...
Jon Trickett | 531 c257 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend confirm that redundancies are taking place now, before the Government have even ...
Mark Lazarowicz | 531 c256 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making some interesting points. However, does he not see the apparent contradi...
John McDonnell | 531 c258 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman might not have heard me say earlier—I might not have made myself clear enough—tha...
Gavin Shuker | 531 c258-9 (Link to this contribution) I rise to speak about a couple of the bodies concerned with rural communities that were mentioned by...
John McDonnell | 531 c257-8 (Link to this contribution) I can confirm that. Redundancies are taking place, and there is near chaos in some organisations, no...
Lord Harrington of Watford | 531 c258 (Link to this contribution) Assuming for a moment that the employment side of the Bill was altered as the hon. Gentleman suggest...
Guto Bebb | 531 c259 (Link to this contribution) I have heard this terminology of a ““race to the bottom”” used twice by Labour Members. Was not the ...
David TC Davies | 531 c254 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman seriously trying to suggest that that terrible tragedy results from the curren...
Jack Dromey | 531 c254-5 (Link to this contribution) However a person is in a country, they do not deserve to die a death like those young Chinese did. ...
Lord Harrington of Watford | 531 c255-6 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) mentioned the tragedy of the Morecambe bay c...
David TC Davies | 531 c248 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend join me in saying that Governments of left and right over the past few years hav...
Elizabeth Truss | 531 c248-9 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. I also agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamor...
Gavin Shuker | 531 c249 (Link to this contribution) Of the six bodies that the hon. Lady has just mentioned, will she explain which are in the Bill?
Elizabeth Truss | 531 c249-50 (Link to this contribution) The point I am making is that we have a huge universe out there, which this Bill seeks to address. W...
Lord Beamish | 531 c250-1 (Link to this contribution) I rise to return to an issue that has been raised—the role of the chief coroner. Like my right hon. ...
Dominic Raab | 531 c251-3 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the opportunity to speak in this important debate. Two key objectives for the coalition a...
Jack Dromey | 531 c253-4 (Link to this contribution) In that great hymn to England, ““Jerusalem””, we celebrate our ““green and pleasant land””, and our ...
Susan Elan Jones | 531 c229-30 (Link to this contribution) I wish to speak up for our one Welsh language television channel, S4C. I call for the provisions tha...
Stephen Mosley | 531 c229 (Link to this contribution) I totally agree, but one problem with the RDA is that it stops at England's border and has not looke...
Mark Williams | 531 c231 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to speak on a Bill that is a great improvement on the version originally presented ...
Susan Elan Jones | 531 c230-1 (Link to this contribution) I would love to, but I am conscious that from now on there is no more injury time. The Select Commi...
Susan Elan Jones | 531 c230 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman could have made a much better intervention about funding. If the intervention tha...
Speaker | 531 c230 (Link to this contribution) Order. I believe that the hon. Gentleman hopes to catch my eye later. He cannot make his speech now....
Alun Cairns | 531 c230 (Link to this contribution) May I return the hon. Lady to her point about funding? She claimed that S4C had suffered a 94% cut, ...
Susan Elan Jones | 531 c230 (Link to this contribution) They probably took as much account of those factors as they appear to have taken of everything else ...
Helen Goodman | 531 c230 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making an eloquent case in citing the private deals made by the Ministers in the D...
Baroness Jowell | 531 c226-7 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The combination of the regulatory responsibility of Consumer Foc...
Tom Greatrex | 531 c226 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend might not have been in the Chamber earlier this afternoon when the Secretary of...
Stephen Mosley | 531 c227-8 (Link to this contribution) For those of us who have kept an eye on the Public Bodies Bill as it made its turbulent six-month pa...
Baroness Jowell | 531 c226 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. The hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) did not catch my eye—
Speaker | 531 c226 (Link to this contribution) Order. There should be only one person on their feet. If the shadow Minister does not wish to give w...
Baroness Jowell | 531 c226 (Link to this contribution) I must make some progress; I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will have a chance to speak later. The...
Mark Tami | 531 c229 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that the whole Deeside hub area, which covers his seat and mine, ...
Glyn Davies | 531 c236-7 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for calling me to speak in this important Second Reading debate. The B...
Bob Ainsworth | 531 c235-6 (Link to this contribution) I do not believe the cost argument would bear any scrutiny in any case, because I believe the creati...
Robert Flello | 531 c235 (Link to this contribution) As ever, my right hon. Friend is making a passionate and thoughtful speech. Would he like to comment...
Lord Beamish | 531 c239 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that because we will not have a chief coroner who can improve standards, w...
Iain Wright | 531 c238-9 (Link to this contribution) No, I think it will make them much worse. That sense of accountability, which we do not have at the ...
Robert Flello | 531 c238 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend think that taking such matters in-house in the Ministry of Justice, hiding them ...
Iain Wright | 531 c237-8 (Link to this contribution) I wish to confine my remarks to the issue of the office of chief coroner. Successive reviews and inq...
Bernard Jenkin | 531 c239-41 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful for the opportunity to speak at this stage in the debate. The Bill is significan...
Iain Wright | 531 c239 (Link to this contribution) I absolutely agree. It will not be value for money for the public purse. There will be additional co...
Paul Flynn | 531 c232 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend recall the Welsh proverb ““Mae allwedd arian yn agor pob clo””, which can be tra...
Robert Flello | 531 c232 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mark Williams | 531 c232 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that quotation. I concur with the sentiment behind it, and I wil...
Robert Flello | 531 c232 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman. He talks of accountability. The bereavement and support ch...
Mark Williams | 531 c232 (Link to this contribution) I have only four and a half minutes, but I will give way.
Mark Williams | 531 c232-4 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman was present when my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwic...
Lord Beamish | 531 c234-5 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend and I had dealings with some of the families of those who served in Afghanistan...
Bob Ainsworth | 531 c234 (Link to this contribution) I shall confine my remarks to the proposed emasculation of the office of the chief coroner. In the t...
Bob Ainsworth | 531 c235 (Link to this contribution) Independence is absolutely essential, and if inquests are not carried out in a timely fashion, but i...
Nick Hurd | 531 c268 (Link to this contribution) Cost is a significant factor in the circumstances that we face, and we should not underestimate its ...
Guto Bebb | 531 c261-2 (Link to this contribution) I will be brief, but I want to say a little about S4C. As the House may know, the Welsh Assembly is ...
Gavin Shuker | 531 c260-1 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate the point, but additional costs of living and the ability for different groups of worke...
Gavin Shuker | 531 c259-60 (Link to this contribution) We need a framework in which all workers are treated on an equal level. The hon. Gentleman makes an ...
Nick Hurd | 531 c266-8 (Link to this contribution) This has been a short debate on a Bill that my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (M...
Jon Trickett | 531 c263-6 (Link to this contribution) This has been an interesting debate, but at certain times Members walking into the Chamber might hav...
Mark Lazarowicz | 531 c262-3 (Link to this contribution) I want to speak about just one of the Government's proposals: the suggestion that the Disabled Perso...
Nick Hurd | 531 c268 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman was not bad, either. There are clearly arguments to be made, and won or lost. The...
Nick Hurd | 531 c268 (Link to this contribution) It is obviously the responsibility of the Government to consider all the costs, but the right hon. G...
Bob Ainsworth | 531 c268 (Link to this contribution) There are processes that are to be performed, and if consistency is to be applied, there will be cos...
Bernard Jenkin | 531 c268-9 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making an emollient and helpful speech, but the real question is not how these iss...
Nick Hurd | 531 c269 (Link to this contribution) That has been considered and rejected. The enhanced affirmative procedure is considered to be adequa...
John McDonnell | 531 c269 (Link to this contribution) On the point about process, because some aspects of the Bill are more contentious than others and th...
Nick Hurd | 531 c269-70 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to give my hon. Friend the reassurance that the Department is extremely sensitive to conc...
Glyn Davies | 531 c269 (Link to this contribution) The one issue that still concerns us is the arrangements for future governance. We seek an assurance...
Nick Hurd | 531 c270 (Link to this contribution) I think that the House understands, as the Government certainly do, that the hon. Gentleman is oppos...
Andrew George | 531 c270 (Link to this contribution) I lead on DEFRA matters for the Liberal Democrats and hope that the Minister understands that I oppo...
Nick Hurd | 531 c270 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right that the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board is not about driving down...
Elizabeth Truss | 531 c270 (Link to this contribution) Farmers in my constituency certainly want less regulation, rather than more, which will enable them ...
Nick Hurd | 531 c270-1 (Link to this contribution) I will not, with great respect, because I have given way a great deal and have limited time in which...
Alun Cairns | 531 c216 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful. I could not agree more with my right hon. Friend about lobbyists, but does he al...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 531 c218 (Link to this contribution) Oh, well, I give way to the hon. Gentleman's blandishments.
Lord Beamish | 531 c243 (Link to this contribution) Is it not remarkable that although the Government have announced that they will transfer the powers ...
Paul Goggins | 531 c241-2 (Link to this contribution) I have particular concerns about two bodies that were taken out of the Bill by the House of Lords bu...
Lord Beamish | 531 c268 (Link to this contribution) The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General told us when he opened the debate that the...
Lord Harrington of Watford | 531 c260 (Link to this contribution) When the Agricultural Wages Board came into being in the late 1940s, lots of other industries were s...
Baroness Jowell | 531 c222 (Link to this contribution) We ought to take into account the reduction of bodies at the Department of Health, link to that the ...
Lord Maude of Horsham | 531 c215 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to my hon. Friend, and then I will make progress. I am conscious that this is going ...
Lord Harrington of Watford | 531 c256 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I think that the hon. Gentleman has made a valid point. Some organisations are much better off ...
Nick Hurd | 531 c269 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend's question goes to the heart of the debate about how the Bill is structured. He under...
Subjects
Conditions of employment
Accountability
Cost effectiveness
Closures
Functions
Pay
Public bodies
Mergers
Redundancy
Non-departmental public bodies
Standards
Reform
S4C
Agricultural Wages Board
Gangmasters Licensing Authority
Chief Coroner
Rural Advocate
Statutory instruments
Legislation
Public Bodies Bill (HL) 2010-12
Link
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