UK Parliament / Open data

Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill

Debate on bills and Committee of the Whole House (HC) on Tuesday, 9 February 2010, in the House of Commons, led by Jack Straw.
Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill. Queen's recommendation signified. Money resolution (No. 3) agreed to on division (357 votes to 180). Committee stage sixth day. New clause 88, discussed with Government new clauses 89 to 96, 98 and new clause 32, debated and agreed to. New clauses 89 to 96, and 98 agreed to. Clause 62 agreed to as amended. Bill title amended. Bill reported with amendments (Bill 68).
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
505 c775-880 
Session
2009-10
Department
Ministry of Justice
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Money resolutions
Queen's recommendation
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill. As amended in Committee.
Tuesday, 9 February 2010
Bills
House of Commons
Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill. Explanatory Notes Bill 4-EN also published.
Thursday, 19 November 2009
Bills
House of Commons
Draft Constitutional Renewal Bill. Government response to the Public Administration Select Committee's tenth report of Session 2007-08 (HC 499).
Monday, 20 July 2009
Command papers
House of Commons
Draft Constitutional Renewal Bill. Government response to the Joint Committee on the Draft Constitutional Renewal Bill first report of session 2007-08 (HC 551 2007-08).
Monday, 20 July 2009
Command papers
House of Lords
House of Commons

Show all related items (7)
Proceeding contributions
Martin Linton | 505 c834 (Link to this contribution) If that is a virtue of the first-past-the-post system, it must be an even greater virtue of the alte...
Martin Linton | 505 c833-4 (Link to this contribution) I am more than happy to explain for the hon. Gentleman's sake. We have never had any MP elected on 6...

Show all contributions (387)
Alan Whitehead | 505 c834-5 (Link to this contribution) I have listened to my hon. Friend's analysis of AV carefully. Would he also care to reflect on one o...
Martin Linton | 505 c835 (Link to this contribution) That is true. Although it would not have the same effect as a totally proportional system, AV would ...
Martin Linton | 505 c834 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. As they were speaking earlier, I looked up many of the Members taking part in this evening's...
Lord Cormack | 505 c836 (Link to this contribution) I was very careful to say that I preferred the status quo, but if there were to be a change, this is...
Lord Cormack | 505 c835-6 (Link to this contribution) I will not attempt to follow the hon. Member for Battersea (Martin Linton) in detail. I want to make...
Chris Huhne | 505 c836 (Link to this contribution) I fail to see the advantage of the system that the hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Member for Birk...
Roger Godsiff | 505 c836 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Lord Cormack | 505 c836 (Link to this contribution) I will, but I am anxious that everyone should get in, and I am conscious of the time.
Roger Godsiff | 505 c836-7 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman said that the AV system forced people to cast their votes in order of preference....
Lord Cormack | 505 c837 (Link to this contribution) I concede that point. One does not have to express further preferences. My other point is still val...
Roger Godsiff | 505 c837-8 (Link to this contribution) Although this is hardly the dominant issue on the doorstep or in the pubs and clubs, I welcome the G...
John Hayes | 505 c838 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has acknowledged that point, which was rejected in my earlier inte...
Roger Godsiff | 505 c838 (Link to this contribution) Somebody once said that democracy is a very bad form of government, but all the others are so much w...
Pete Wishart | 505 c838 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman concede that AV actually works against smaller parties? It is almost impossi...
Roger Godsiff | 505 c838-9 (Link to this contribution) I did not suggest that it did. I was arguing for the virtues of an alternative vote system as an imp...
Mark Lazarowicz | 505 c839 (Link to this contribution) Before my hon. Friend goes too far in suggesting that the Jenkins commission was a personal exercise...
Roger Godsiff | 505 c839 (Link to this contribution) I hear what my hon. Friend says, but the fact of the matter is that this is always cited as ““the Je...
David Howarth | 505 c829 (Link to this contribution) That is the central point, and that is why the Secretary of State was right to raise the point about...
Daniel Kawczynski | 505 c829 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman talks passionately about proportional representation, but he knows that we do not...
David Howarth | 505 c828 (Link to this contribution) I wish that I could give that assurance. Manifestos are mainly for internal consumption—[Interruptio...
Lord Howard of Lympne | 505 c828 (Link to this contribution) In the light of what the hon. Gentleman says, will he give us an assurance that the Liberal Democrat...
David Howarth | 505 c829-30 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman's argument is more on my side than on his. As we already have coalitions within p...
David Howarth | 505 c829 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right that the debate here is often extraordinarily parochial. The idea that one c...
David Wilshire | 505 c829 (Link to this contribution) It is a myth that we do not have grand coalitions in this country. What a first-past-the-post system...
David Howarth | 505 c829 (Link to this contribution) I do not consider more than a fifth of the vote to be a small number of votes. It does not follow th...
Paul Robert Holmes | 505 c829 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend share my view about the parochial nature of much of the debate from the Conserva...
Martin Linton | 505 c831-2 (Link to this contribution) I am enjoying listening to Conservative Members preaching proportionality to the rest of the Committ...
David Wilshire | 505 c832 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman mentioned Australia, and I am fairly certain that it was there that somebody mana...
Martin Linton | 505 c832 (Link to this contribution) Of course, that could also be true under first past the post, but with one difference. I can think o...
David Wilshire | 505 c832 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way on that point?
Martin Linton | 505 c830-1 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Cambridge (David Howarth). I shall be considerably br...
William Cash | 505 c831 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman, who is advancing his case for AV, recall that I made the following point to...
Martin Linton | 505 c832 (Link to this contribution) I must resist that, because I fear that we are going to go down a side issue.
David Wilshire | 505 c833 (Link to this contribution) I am puzzled by what the hon. Gentleman has said.
David Wilshire | 505 c833 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful. The hon. Gentleman claimed that under the first-past-the-post system, someone wh...
Pete Wishart | 505 c825 (Link to this contribution) I note the hon. Gentleman's pain and his great concerns about voting with the Government for new cla...
David Howarth | 505 c825 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman exaggerates the extent to which AV is disproportionate or worse than first past t...
John Hayes | 505 c825 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the hon. Gentleman will put the answer to my question on the record once again, because ...
David Howarth | 505 c824 (Link to this contribution) No. We should just get on with doing the right thing, which is to move to a fairer electoral system ...
David Howarth | 505 c826 (Link to this contribution) I can assure the hon. Gentleman that there is no such pact now. The AV system is not proportionate,...
William Cash | 505 c826 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman referred to the Paddy Ashdown diaries. To take forward my point about cynicism an...
David Howarth | 505 c825-6 (Link to this contribution) I fear, Sir Alan, that if I stray into that debate, I will be brought up short very quickly. The hol...
Daniel Kawczynski | 505 c824 (Link to this contribution) In my discussions with the Electoral Commission, it has stated that it is possible to argue that we ...
David Howarth | 505 c824 (Link to this contribution) We will vote for amendment (b) to Government new clause 88 so that the referendum is between first p...
Oliver Heald | 505 c824 (Link to this contribution) After all these years of going on ““Question Time”” and other programmes saying that the Liberal Dem...
David Howarth | 505 c827 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right. First past the post did not work even in its own terms. The one thing t...
Mark Lazarowicz | 505 c827 (Link to this contribution) With respect, it is not a good point at all. The first-past-the-post system was not good at represen...
David Howarth | 505 c828 (Link to this contribution) So the argument works the other way round as well. The Secretary of State made an important and ser...
Alan Reid | 505 c827 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right to highlight the fact that the first-past-the-post system does not work even...
David Howarth | 505 c828 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman demonstrates the obvious fault that I mentioned—the parties did not win the suppo...
Tom Harris | 505 c828 (Link to this contribution) Why is the current system so much less democratic than a proportional system in which, as soon as th...
David Howarth | 505 c827 (Link to this contribution) The sentiment is expressed through a disaffection with politics and a hatred of politicians. To see ...
Jeremy Browne | 505 c827 (Link to this contribution) Is not the crucial change this: that in the 1950s the combined Labour-Conservative vote rose as high...
Jack Straw | 505 c854 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. I am enjoying his speech, and he will wish to know that h...
Lord Deben | 505 c854 (Link to this contribution) The Conservative voter has the same vote in both rounds, whereas the other voter is able to change h...
Hugh Bayley | 505 c853-4 (Link to this contribution) It is very kind of the right hon. Gentleman to give way, but he has got the mathematics wrong. In th...
Lord Deben | 505 c853 (Link to this contribution) Of course, I obey exactly what you say, Mrs. Heal, but the Liberal Democrats have in this debate tak...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 505 c853 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will get back to looking specifically at the proposal...
Lord Deben | 505 c853 (Link to this contribution) Indeed it is. Liberal Democrat voters in my constituency vote for a totally different policy from Li...
Lord Deben | 505 c852 (Link to this contribution) I give way to an uncynical Member.
Mark Durkan | 505 c852 (Link to this contribution) I thank the right hon. Gentleman uncynically for being so generous. He is suggesting that Ministers ...
Lord Deben | 505 c852 (Link to this contribution) No I will not—[Interruption.] No. I will not do so because I do not believe in proportional represen...
Lord Deben | 505 c850-2 (Link to this contribution) One could start by saying that there is a distinction between offering the public a choice and offer...
Mark Durkan | 505 c850 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for making that point, but I do not accept it. Our experiences in Norther...
Pete Wishart | 505 c846-7 (Link to this contribution) With all due respect to the hon. Gentleman, it was not held up by just two Green MSPs. It was held u...
Daniel Kawczynski | 505 c846 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman speaks in favour of proportional representation, so does that mean that he was ha...
Sammy Wilson | 505 c850 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is a strong advocate for the proportional representation system, but he is over-e...
Mark Durkan | 505 c847-50 (Link to this contribution) Several hon. Members have spoken about fairness and proportionality, and on that basis I support the...
Pete Wishart | 505 c845-6 (Link to this contribution) I rise not just to support this modest measure, but to mock and disparage it. Of all the electoral r...
David Heath | 505 c844 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept that that also happens in multi-member first-past-the-post council el...
Mark Lazarowicz | 505 c842-3 (Link to this contribution) My starting point for this discussion is as somebody who has supported proportional representation f...
Lord Howard of Lympne | 505 c842 (Link to this contribution) No, it did not, and it will not happen every time; of course, there will be many occasions when AV w...
Lord Wills | 505 c842 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the right hon. and learned Gentleman is aware that this system is used in London, alt...
Lord Howard of Lympne | 505 c841-2 (Link to this contribution) In fact, the hon. Gentleman exemplifies the unpredictability of the system that is being proposed he...
Mark Lazarowicz | 505 c844 (Link to this contribution) I sought to express—perhaps not clearly enough for the hon. Gentleman—that I think that the proposal...
Mark Harper | 505 c843 (Link to this contribution) I am finding intellectual inconsistency in what the hon. Gentleman is proposing. From his point of v...
Mark Lazarowicz | 505 c843 (Link to this contribution) A referendum would of course take place at some stage before 2011. My position is clear—I support a ...
Lord Howard of Lympne | 505 c841 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is, of course, absolutely right.
Sammy Wilson | 505 c841 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. and learned Gentleman has rightly pointed out that all the arguments in favour of AV,...
Lord Deben | 505 c841 (Link to this contribution) I hope that my right hon. and learned Friend will not avoid answering the question posed by the hon....
Lord Howard of Lympne | 505 c839-40 (Link to this contribution) Last week, Lord Turnbull, who knows the Prime Minister particularly well, having served as his perma...
Lord Howard of Lympne | 505 c840 (Link to this contribution) I will give way. The hon. Gentlemen had better decide between them who should go first.
Lord Howard of Lympne | 505 c840-1 (Link to this contribution) The single transferable vote is not perfectly proportional. I am talking about a system which exists...
David Howarth | 505 c840 (Link to this contribution) I will go first. The right hon. and learned Gentleman has said that it is difficult, or even imposs...
Mark Lazarowicz | 505 c841 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. and learned Gentleman has ably described the disadvantages of a pure proportional rep...
Frank Dobson | 505 c855 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Lord Deben | 505 c854-5 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to go into this too far, because I think the Chair would stop me. The right hon. Gentl...
Hugh Bayley | 505 c856-8 (Link to this contribution) We have heard this afternoon a lot of party political advantage masquerading as high principle, but ...
Lord Deben | 505 c855-6 (Link to this contribution) Let me finish then. My last point is again addressed to the Liberal Democrats. In the past, they hav...
Lord Deben | 505 c855 (Link to this contribution) Well, that is one of the problems of this House. When we voted for television, we foolishly did not ...
Frank Dobson | 505 c855 (Link to this contribution) I was watching it in my office.
Lord Deben | 505 c855 (Link to this contribution) As the right hon. Gentleman has not been in his place for the debate—
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 505 c858 (Link to this contribution) Order. In the time that is remaining, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will confine his remarks to the...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 505 c859 (Link to this contribution) Order. I have no doubt that the hon. Gentleman will do so. Whatever other people might have done, I ...
George Galloway | 505 c858 (Link to this contribution) If I do—and I will—follow your injunction, Mrs. Heal, I shall be practically the only Member in the ...
George Galloway | 505 c860 (Link to this contribution) This right-wing rump—for a variety of reasons that I have no time to develop—now stands on the brink...
Lord Wills | 505 c860-1 (Link to this contribution) I think we have had a good debate. Amid all the arcane discussion of electoral technology, various i...
John Hayes | 505 c859 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mrs. Heal. Having had to put up with a guilt-ridden, doubt-fuelled rant about P...
George Galloway | 505 c859 (Link to this contribution) How I wish that you had been in the Chair all evening, Mrs. Heal, as I have had to listen to all of ...
George Galloway | 505 c859-60 (Link to this contribution) Yes, they are. I am supporting amendment (b). The hon. Gentleman—who has made at least six intervent...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 505 c859 (Link to this contribution) The points that are currently being made are relevant to the debate.
Lord Wills | 505 c861-2 (Link to this contribution) The vigour of the response that my words have elicited may demonstrate that I have struck a raw nerv...
Richard Burden | 505 c861 (Link to this contribution) The most important thing that the Leader of the Opposition said in his speech yesterday was, ““Above...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 505 c862 (Link to this contribution) Order. I apologise for interrupting the Minister, but the private conversations of Members who have ...
Lord Wills | 505 c862 (Link to this contribution) I will move on now, but I very much want to return to debate this subject—and, believe me, we will, ...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 505 c862 (Link to this contribution) That is, in fact, a point for debate and, as the occupant of the Chair, I am bound by the Standing O...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c862 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mrs. Heal. Is it in order for the Government to guillotine debate to make it im...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 505 c867 (Link to this contribution) I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Lobby.
Lord Wills | 505 c863 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mrs. Heal. We are rightly putting forward through this Bill many measures to give Parlia...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c880 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Madam Chairman. The reality is that, without the debate having been long-winded...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 505 c880 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. and learned Gentleman has made his point, and it will have been heard and noted. Equ...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c807-8 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is quite right. The list system has effectively destroyed European elections for all ...
Robert Syms | 505 c807 (Link to this contribution) I remember the last time that the Justice Secretary came before the House to change an electoral sys...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c808 (Link to this contribution) It seems to me that it is a legitimate system whatever the percentage, because the electorate are as...
Chris Huhne | 505 c808 (Link to this contribution) While the hon. and learned Gentleman is extolling the virtues of the first-past-the-post system, wil...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c808 (Link to this contribution) In a moment. Let me make a tiny bit more progress. I was just pointing out that when the first grea...
Andrew Pelling | 505 c808 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
Martin Linton | 505 c808 (Link to this contribution) Surely, if there was a bias in the elections that have been mentioned, it was not in the voting syst...
David Howarth | 505 c807 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. and learned Gentleman for giving way because he has just given away my party's whol...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c807 (Link to this contribution) Let me make some progress. I fully understand the hon. Gentleman's point, but I believe that the fir...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c807 (Link to this contribution) I believe in the first-past-the-post system and that the Secretary of State, in terms of his adheren...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 505 c818 (Link to this contribution) No, I am going to make a small amount of progress, because you, Sir Alan, were kind enough to say th...
Martin Linton | 505 c818-9 (Link to this contribution) I know that my right hon. Friend has 65 per cent. of the first preference votes in Birkenhead, and I...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 505 c819 (Link to this contribution) If that is my hon. Friend's thinking, I hope that I will persuade him of the merits of my amendment....
Graham Stringer | 505 c818 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend has obviously thought very deeply about we can address the disillusion with pol...
Geraldine Smith | 505 c818 (Link to this contribution) I think that there are dangers with open primaries. Supporters of the Opposition parties may turn up...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 505 c818 (Link to this contribution) Order. The right hon. Gentleman has a reputation for bringing new angles to our debates, but I think...
Bob Spink | 505 c818 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 505 c818 (Link to this contribution) I hope, Sir Alan, that you will nevertheless allow me to conclude this part of my speech. During the...
Mark Durkan | 505 c817 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend has already accepted the dangers of the costs of an open-primary system. Does h...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 505 c817-8 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that, but I shall not go down that route; the Chairman might suggest that I should...
Lord Soames of Fletching | 505 c817 (Link to this contribution) I support what the right hon. Gentleman has said about open primaries. Does he agree that, particula...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 505 c817 (Link to this contribution) It is. One of the constraints on our current debate has been our use of an old-fashioned set of spec...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 505 c816-7 (Link to this contribution) I totally agree, but I do not want to go down that particular route; I want to try to move on the de...
John Hayes | 505 c816 (Link to this contribution) The point that the right hon. Gentleman has made is disturbing enough when it involves the extra pow...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 505 c817 (Link to this contribution) I give way to the hon. Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames).
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 505 c817 (Link to this contribution) We hope that they will be excellent candidates and MPs. Having been selected in that way, they will ...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 505 c817 (Link to this contribution) As I am sure the right hon. Gentleman is well aware, the Conservative party has held several open pr...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 505 c817 (Link to this contribution) I give way to the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs. Laing).
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 505 c816 (Link to this contribution) I give way to the hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr. Hayes).
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 505 c815-6 (Link to this contribution) After that happy start, I rise again to speak to new clause 88; in passing, I shall obviously want t...
David Wilshire | 505 c814 (Link to this contribution) On my hon. and learned Friend's point about why only one alternative voting system would be offered,...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c814 (Link to this contribution) I have not the slightest idea. The Minister is now getting bogged down—[Interruption.] But he is. He...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 505 c815 (Link to this contribution) I wish to move the amendments that stand in my name on the amendment paper, but I also want to pick ...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c815 (Link to this contribution) Yes, my hon. Friend makes a good point. The evidence of the Government's motivation is overwhelming,...
Lord Wills | 505 c814 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman has quoted at great length from the review of voting systems, but on ...
Bob Spink | 505 c814 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
Dominic Grieve | 505 c814 (Link to this contribution) No. May I commend to the Secretary of State the words of his hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, So...
Jack Straw | 505 c813-4 (Link to this contribution) The new clauses before the Committee would not impose the alternative vote system on the British peo...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c814 (Link to this contribution) I refer the Secretary of State to his son's blog. [Interruption.] Yes, I do. I commend it to the rig...
Chris Huhne | 505 c813 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman says that the existing system allows people to get rid of MPs whom th...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c813 (Link to this contribution) Voters can make up their own mind, and I disagree with the hon. Gentleman. Voters are offered a clea...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c813 (Link to this contribution) There is no perfect system, although I am bound to say—[Interruption.] No, there is not: there is no...
Jeremy Browne | 505 c813 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman has spent his entire speech arguing for the merits of a system that i...
Bob Spink | 505 c812 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
David Howarth | 505 c823 (Link to this contribution) It comes as no great surprise that my great leader Mr. Lloyd George was accused of cynicism on occas...
Tom Harris | 505 c823 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman said earlier that the STV system does away with the single-Member, single-constit...
David Howarth | 505 c823-4 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to the hon. Gentlemen later, but I want to make some progress—I have not even starte...
David Howarth | 505 c823 (Link to this contribution) Our proposal would do the same for the Western Isles, which is held by the Scottish National party. ...
David Howarth | 505 c824 (Link to this contribution) I did not believe her, and given that 13 years later, no referendum has happened, I am inclined to t...
David Howarth | 505 c824 (Link to this contribution) In a second. Why have the Government come to propose such reform so late in the day? It looks like a...
William Cash | 505 c823 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept a point that I have addressed to him and the Secretary of State, that...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 505 c820 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for saying so. I want to bring my remarks to conclusion...
Lynne Jones | 505 c822 (Link to this contribution) Those of us who feel that we ought to move to a more proportional system cannot support the Liberal ...
David Howarth | 505 c822 (Link to this contribution) There are two points to consider in the hon. Lady's question. The first is whether the single transf...
Mark Lazarowicz | 505 c822 (Link to this contribution) The situation that the hon. Gentleman describes applies under the additional Member system in both S...
David Howarth | 505 c822 (Link to this contribution) I concede that it is a better system than first past the post, but a lot of the problems are about h...
Lord Deben | 505 c821 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that many of us believe that despite its disproportionate drawbac...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 505 c821 (Link to this contribution) Order. I know that there are complex arguments to be put in Committee, but I have to say to the righ...
David Howarth | 505 c821-2 (Link to this contribution) I am trying to remember the start of the intervention. It seems to me that one cannot argue that fir...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 505 c820 (Link to this contribution) I will not go too far down that path, except to say that I have been in the House for 30 years, and ...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 505 c820 (Link to this contribution) It is always good to have a disinterested contribution made here.
David Drew | 505 c820 (Link to this contribution) Much as I have difficulty with this proposal, because it is based on the French system, does my righ...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 505 c820 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink) has been jumping up a lot, I will give way to him an...
Bob Spink | 505 c820 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. If he presses his amendment with the three alternatives t...
Richard Burden | 505 c819 (Link to this contribution) I am following my right hon. Friend's remarks with care. I wonder whether he has studied some of the...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 505 c819 (Link to this contribution) I am not putting this proposal forward as the silver bullet to solve all the problems. I welcome the...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c811 (Link to this contribution) I understood the Secretary of State to say that he assumed that people would vote differently. That ...
Lord Deben | 505 c811 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. and learned Friend agree that it is very difficult to decide how people would have vote...
Lord Wills | 505 c811 (Link to this contribution) Then he should not quote from documents with which he is not familiar. In the introduction to the sc...
Lord Cormack | 505 c812 (Link to this contribution) Is not the greatest absurdity of all the fact that the Secretary of State knows full well that there...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c811 (Link to this contribution) I have a soft spot for the Secretary of State, and I have to tell my hon. Friend that I wonder wheth...
John Hayes | 505 c811 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. and learned Gentleman agree that the Secretary of State once understood that himself? T...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c811 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I agree entirely with my right hon. Friend. I presume that the Minister of State was speaking o...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c812 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely with my right hon. Friend, but this is not the first time that we have had surreal ...
John Redwood | 505 c812 (Link to this contribution) Labour and Liberal Democrat representatives seem keen to say that we use the alternative vote system...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c812 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a very good point. There is something somewhat unreal about this, and I shall r...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c809-10 (Link to this contribution) In a moment. [Hon. Members: ““Frit!””] I am sure that there is a desire to interrupt an account of w...
Brian H Donohoe | 505 c810 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. and learned Gentleman address the anomalies north of the border, where there are four ...
Chris Huhne | 505 c810 (Link to this contribution) On that point, will the hon. and learned Gentleman say whether he regards the Conservative party's S...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c810 (Link to this contribution) From the many debates that we have had on Scotland, the hon. Gentleman knows that we are respecters ...
Andrew Pelling | 505 c810 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
Dominic Grieve | 505 c810 (Link to this contribution) Yes, it is fair. I have no difficulty with the first-past-the-post system for Westminster elections,...
Bob Spink | 505 c810 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
Lord Wills | 505 c810 (Link to this contribution) Before the hon. and learned Gentleman moves on, he has made great play of the review of voting syste...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c808-9 (Link to this contribution) I agree that voters have a choice. Frankly, I am singularly unconcerned about the Liberal Democrats'...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c809 (Link to this contribution) I thought that we had sorted this out in interventions on the Secretary of State. We are talking the...
Lord Wills | 505 c809 (Link to this contribution) On that point, given what the hon. and learned Gentleman has just said, what is his position on the ...
Jeremy Browne | 505 c809 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
Dominic Grieve | 505 c809 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely with my right hon. Friend. I was not going to quote Churchill, but it seems to me t...
John Redwood | 505 c809 (Link to this contribution) What is fair about a system that means that those who vote for the first or second-most popular part...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c809 (Link to this contribution) In a moment. When the Prime Minister took office in 2007, he promised to publish a review. In 2005,...
Bob Spink | 505 c809 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. and learned Gentleman give way on that point?
Chris Huhne | 505 c809 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
Jack Straw | 505 c783 (Link to this contribution) I am very happy to ensure that the right hon. Gentleman is provided with that information. The righ...
Lord Deben | 505 c783 (Link to this contribution) I am looking forward to having the precise figures on that, because it certainly does not characteri...
Jack Straw | 505 c783-4 (Link to this contribution) I will not give way, because I only have a short time. We have heard suggestions that the idea of t...
Jack Straw | 505 c784 (Link to this contribution) That does not stop it being an alternative. To revert to my point, no Opposition Member can tell me...
Speaker | 505 c784 (Link to this contribution) Order. May I remind the House of what I said earlier? We should confine our remarks to the money inv...
Peter Tapsell | 505 c784 (Link to this contribution) May I just point out a mathematical fact to the Secretary of State? The leader of the Conservative p...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c780 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman. He knows that there is no prospect of the amendment that h...
David Heath | 505 c780 (Link to this contribution) I shall not prejudge the debate that we are about to have, but the hon. and learned Gentleman obviou...
Lord Deben | 505 c780-1 (Link to this contribution) Earlier today we had a discussion about out-of-hours GP provision. In my constituency and the whole ...
Lord Deben | 505 c781 (Link to this contribution) In the old days, which the right hon. Gentleman might remember, we discussed the issue first and the...
Richard Shepherd | 505 c781 (Link to this contribution) We know the reason why; it was to prevent the House from wasting 40 minutes after 10 o'clock, as the...
Lord Deben | 505 c781 (Link to this contribution) That reminds us why this is such an outrage and such a scandal. The reason why the House is not keep...
Lord Cormack | 505 c781-2 (Link to this contribution) As I follow my right hon. Friend's splendid speech, I am tempted to remember the American politician...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c782 (Link to this contribution) When the Government came up with these proposals, they could not, when asked, provide costings on ho...
Jack Straw | 505 c782-3 (Link to this contribution) I have sat in this House for a very long time, and rarely have I heard such hyperbole and abuse in p...
Speaker | 505 c784 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am in danger of interrupting the Secretary of State too often, but I will continue to do so...
Jack Straw | 505 c784 (Link to this contribution) I was seeking to make the case for why this expenditure represents value for money, Mr. Deputy Speak...
William Cash | 505 c784 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State answer our very simple question about the intellectual dishonesty that l...
Jack Straw | 505 c785 (Link to this contribution) If it were a cynical ploy, which it is not—[Interruption.] I could understand that argument if we we...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 505 c792 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am touched, but if it is any difficulty for the Secretary of State, he could just say Mr. C...
Jack Straw | 505 c792-3 (Link to this contribution) Sir Alan, I apologise profusely. It might be convenient if I give the Committee notice—I have alrea...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 505 c791-2 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: amendment (a), leave out ““31 October”” an...
Robert Smith | 505 c793 (Link to this contribution) If we are putting through new clauses without debate, will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that the ...
Jack Straw | 505 c793 (Link to this contribution) What I can undertake to do is ensure that my name is attached to any amendments, so that they would ...
Jack Straw | 505 c794 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I should like to make some progress on the clauses before the...
Andrew Pelling | 505 c793 (Link to this contribution) And the House would be a great deal better off if Members were independent. On the point about overn...
Jack Straw | 505 c793-4 (Link to this contribution) New clause 98 provides for the counts beginning within four hours of the close of the poll. Everybod...
Jack Straw | 505 c793 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the hon. Lady.
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 505 c793 (Link to this contribution) May I congratulate the Lord Chancellor on his courage in adding his name and that of his right hon. ...
Graham Stringer | 505 c800 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 505 c800 (Link to this contribution) Order. The Secretary of State's appetite for debating and responding to interjections is legendary, ...
Jack Straw | 505 c799 (Link to this contribution) By allowing the public to express—[Interruption.]
Jack Straw | 505 c799 (Link to this contribution) I have now answered the hon. Gentleman's question.
Jack Straw | 505 c800-1 (Link to this contribution) I will in a second. It was 100 years ago this year that a royal commission unanimously recommended ...
Jack Straw | 505 c800 (Link to this contribution) I will in a second. Between 1945 and 1970, the Labour and Conservative parties shared over 85 per c...
Graham Stringer | 505 c800 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?
Jack Straw | 505 c802 (Link to this contribution) Without being tempted down that path, I say to my right hon. Friend that I, too, felt rather gypped ...
Kevin Barron | 505 c801-2 (Link to this contribution) I think that AV would be fairer. Did my right hon. Friend hear the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris ...
Jack Straw | 505 c802 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, and then I will make some serious progress...
Graham Stringer | 505 c801 (Link to this contribution) Can my right hon. Friend not see that there is a flaw in his argument when he compares national elec...
Jack Straw | 505 c801 (Link to this contribution) I usually follow the hon. Gentleman's argument but disagree with him. On this occasion, I am afraid ...
William Cash | 505 c801 (Link to this contribution) Given that the objective of a general election is to determine a Parliament and a Government, does t...
Lord Howard of Lympne | 505 c802 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Lord Chancellor for giving way. Since he has now mentioned his constituent...
Jack Straw | 505 c802 (Link to this contribution) I am holding a soap box session this Saturday in Blackburn town centre, and I invite the right hon. ...
Jack Straw | 505 c803-4 (Link to this contribution) No, I am going to make progress. The hon. and learned Gentleman has a speech to make, too. The Conse...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c803 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?
Jack Straw | 505 c803 (Link to this contribution) No, I am going to make some progress. That is how we have approached these matters in the past. Bet...
Edward Leigh | 505 c803 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Jack Straw | 505 c804 (Link to this contribution) I have given way to the hon. and learned Gentleman three times. The Conservative proposals are in s...
Jack Straw | 505 c804 (Link to this contribution) I shall not give way. The hon. and learned Gentleman has his own speech to make in a moment.
Jack Straw | 505 c802-3 (Link to this contribution) I have taken a lot of interventions, and I am now going to make some progress. I am sure that we wi...
Jack Straw | 505 c804 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman wants to ask about the poll tax, so I will give way.
Dominic Grieve | 505 c806 (Link to this contribution) I am truly sorry to see the Secretary of State being obliged to be associated with this guff. The b...
Jack Straw | 505 c805-6 (Link to this contribution) I do not withdraw that allegation, because it happens to have the merit of being true. What is more,...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c807 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely uncertain what the Justice Secretary is going on about. My view, particularly in ligh...
Edward Leigh | 505 c806 (Link to this contribution) May we purse the point that the Justice Secretary made about whether voters would have changed their...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c807 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely with my right hon. Friend and I apologise if I did not do justice to the point that...
Lord Deben | 505 c807 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. and learned Friend remember that the assessment of what would have happened in 1983 and...
Jack Straw | 505 c804 (Link to this contribution) So, that gives the lie to what I have just said? What it tells us is that this policy is as well tho...
David Wilshire | 505 c794 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Jack Straw | 505 c795 (Link to this contribution) What I have long been a supporter of is—[Hon. Members: ““Answer!””]—I am going to answer: majoritari...
Lord Cormack | 505 c794 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Lord High Chancellor. He has a reputation of being a supporter of first past th...
Jack Straw | 505 c794 (Link to this contribution) If I may, I will give way to the hon. Gentleman first, and then to his hon. and learned Friend.
Lord Cormack | 505 c794 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Dominic Grieve | 505 c795 (Link to this contribution) I was a bit puzzled to hear the right hon. Gentleman praying in aid the Labour party's election syst...
Jack Straw | 505 c795 (Link to this contribution) That shows how little the hon. and learned Gentleman knows about the Labour party's system, which pr...
Jack Straw | 505 c795 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman says that it is our system, but, while the law provides that there has to be a sy...
Jack Straw | 505 c796 (Link to this contribution) I have already explained that the truth about the Jenkins proposals—it became clear as people digest...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c796 (Link to this contribution) May I take the Secretary of State back to his reference to the Jenkins commission? On 2 June 1998, h...
Jack Straw | 505 c796 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend will remember the debates that took place on the Jenkins commission when it reported ...
Lynne Jones | 505 c795 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend has suggested that his own preference is for AV, but the Government set up a ro...
Jack Straw | 505 c796 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that my hon. Friend acknowledges the importance of giving the British people a choice. We ...
Brian H Donohoe | 505 c796 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps we could achieve consensus if we looked at the Scottish experience, where four different sys...
David Howarth | 505 c797 (Link to this contribution) May I take the Secretary of State back to his statement about single-Member representation? Is he pr...
Daniel Kawczynski | 505 c797 (Link to this contribution) Just a few short weeks ago in a Westminster Hall debate on proportional representation, the Minister...
Jack Straw | 505 c797 (Link to this contribution) No, I am not. With great respect, the considerations that apply in local elections are different fro...
Jack Straw | 505 c797 (Link to this contribution) I give way to the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski).
Chris Huhne | 505 c797 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State will be aware that the Irish system proposed by the Liberal Democrats would d...
Jack Straw | 505 c797 (Link to this contribution) I give way to the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne), but then I want to make some progress.
Jack Straw | 505 c798 (Link to this contribution) The fundamental problem that affects all voting systems is the fact that there is no way, mathematic...
Jack Straw | 505 c798 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood), but then I must make progress....
John Redwood | 505 c798 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the Secretary of State about single-Member constituencies. As he wants change, however,...
Jack Straw | 505 c798 (Link to this contribution) I know that Conservative Members have suggested that earlier elections could have produced this or t...
Jack Straw | 505 c798-9 (Link to this contribution) I will give way in a moment, but I want to make some progress first. I have already given way a grea...
Tom Harris | 505 c799 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend attribute the stainless reputation of Italian politicians to the fact that...
Jack Straw | 505 c799 (Link to this contribution) I have never argued in favour of proportional representation—and this is not proportional representa...
Jack Straw | 505 c799 (Link to this contribution) I will in a moment. I have already taken one intervention from the hon. Gentleman.
Peter Tapsell | 505 c799 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?
Jack Straw | 505 c799 (Link to this contribution) I did answer it, and I will answer it again. The answer is that, even under an alternative vote syst...
Peter Tapsell | 505 c799 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State would not answer the question that I asked then.
Speaker | 505 c777 (Link to this contribution) Order. Before the right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) responds t...
Andrew Pelling | 505 c776-7 (Link to this contribution) Would it not be possible for Members of this House to take back that power from the Whips? It is the...
Viscount Hailsham | 505 c776 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) will doubtless seek to catch...
Hugh Bayley | 505 c776 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman at least acknowledge that the alternative vote system is n...
Richard Shepherd | 505 c778 (Link to this contribution) That is the point that I want to emphasise. If we defeat the money resolution, we will not have deal...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 505 c778 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry that I did not hear the beginning of the hon. Gentleman's speech, but the money resolutio...
Richard Shepherd | 505 c777-8 (Link to this contribution) I follow my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) with ...
Viscount Hailsham | 505 c777 (Link to this contribution) I was rather minded of that before you intervened, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Let me make this response, if...
Tom Levitt | 505 c778 (Link to this contribution) I believe that the hon. Gentleman has won a seat in this place in seven general elections. In how ma...
Speaker | 505 c778 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am sorry to intervene again, but we are talking simply about the expenses involved in this ...
Richard Shepherd | 505 c778 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I should have liked to reply ““five”” to that question, but that woul...
David Heath | 505 c779 (Link to this contribution) You were correct, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to point out to the House that we are discussing a money resol...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c779 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
David Heath | 505 c779 (Link to this contribution) I will give way later. The Government have been in power for 12 years and done nothing about elector...
Viscount Hailsham | 505 c779 (Link to this contribution) The plain truth is that, if this is the useless gimmick that the hon. Gentleman says that it is, we ...
David Heath | 505 c779 (Link to this contribution) I said that I would give way to the right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr...
William Cash | 505 c779 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
David Heath | 505 c779 (Link to this contribution) But ideas are not responsible for their authors. It may well be that, in the mind of the Prime Minis...
David Heath | 505 c779-80 (Link to this contribution) No, as I am about to finish. The British people should be given a choice between the present system ...
Lord Deben | 505 c776 (Link to this contribution) I am sure my right hon. and learned Friend has thought about this himself in the dark watches of the...
Viscount Hailsham | 505 c775 (Link to this contribution) I rise to oppose this money resolution on several grounds. First, it meets no perceived need. It has...
Viscount Hailsham | 505 c776 (Link to this contribution) Yes, indeed. It has the curious property of producing not the most popular representative, but the l...
Daniel Kawczynski | 505 c776 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend. May I inform him, as joint chairman together with...
Viscount Hailsham | 505 c776 (Link to this contribution) Had those Members the courage of their convictions, they would be voting against it today.
Tony Wright | 505 c828 (Link to this contribution) I am enjoying the hon. Gentleman's remarks, and agreeing with much of what he says, but is not the f...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 505 c856 (Link to this contribution) Order. I advise right hon. and hon. Members that the winding-up speech, I understand, will commence ...
Jack Straw | 505 c801 (Link to this contribution) I would make two points in response to that. First, these so-called extrapolations cannot take into ...
Tom Levitt | 505 c834 (Link to this contribution) The other people who would benefit from AV are all the Members of this House. Everyone would then be...
David Winnick | 505 c826-7 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman referred to the Great Reform Act, when there was great agitation to end the corru...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 505 c855 (Link to this contribution) Order. That is definitely a debate for another day.
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 505 c818 (Link to this contribution) I agree with that. However, given my earlier suggestion that we should use this debate not seriously...
Dominic Grieve | 505 c812-3 (Link to this contribution) No, I really must make progress. The Liberal Democrats have tabled amendment (d) to give the public...
David Howarth | 505 c821 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry that I do not agree with either of the points that the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (...
Jack Straw | 505 c800 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Sir Alan. I will make a little progress now, but I will take more interventions later. I...
Jack Straw | 505 c794 (Link to this contribution) In one second. All the major parties represented here have at the heart of the election of their le...
John Hayes | 505 c834 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman said that the only people who had an advantage under an AV system were the voters...
George Galloway | 505 c858 (Link to this contribution) Like the hon. Member for City of York (Hugh Bayley), I am a long-time member of the Labour campaign ...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 505 c815 (Link to this contribution) Order. This is not the moment to move amendments; we have to dispose of new clause 88 first. The rig...
Jack Straw | 505 c791 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Jack Straw | 505 c793 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, although I do not think that he has a party behind him.
Jack Straw | 505 c794 (Link to this contribution) I will give way, but I need to make some progress first. That referendum will allow the British peo...
Jack Straw | 505 c797 (Link to this contribution) Well, my right hon. Friend says that he did not give that assurance and I am sure that the hon. Gent...
Mark Lazarowicz | 505 c844-5 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, but the effects would be much smaller in a first-past-the-post, or first two-past-the-post, ...
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 505 c843 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman tell the House where the demand for this electoral change is coming from? Wh...
Lord Howard of Lympne | 505 c841 (Link to this contribution) I accept that no one is, for the moment, proposing a system of that kind, but that is the only syste...
Lord Wills | 505 c861 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has made a good point. I will suggest a possible reason why the Opposition take that ...
Oliver Heald | 505 c824 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Dominic Grieve | 505 c804-5 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State cannot have it both ways. He cannot, on the one hand, rightly highlight the f...
Jack Straw | 505 c797 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that I do not. I remember the Gould report and the circumstances that led up to it. I th...
Tom Harris | 505 c797 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend will be aware of the recommendations of the Gould report, produced after the de...
Subjects
Boundary commissions
Constituency size
Constituencies
Alternative vote
Administration
Constitutional and administrative law
House of Commons
General elections
Members
Referendums
Voting methods
Legislation
Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill 2008-09 to 2009-10
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
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