Policing and Crime Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Wednesday, 1 July 2009, in the House of Lords.

Policing and Crime Bill. Lords Committee stage second day. Clauses 13 and 14 agreed to as amended. Clauses 15 to 17 agreed to. Schedule 1 agreed to.

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

712 c238-87,304-22

Session

2008-09

Department

Home Office

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Policing and Crime Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 48-EN also published
Wednesday, 20 May 2009
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 712 c322 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his detailed reply, which I shall read carefully. It details a useful flow ...

Viscount Bridgeman | 712 c317 (Link to this contribution) This gives me an opportunity to ask the Government about a matter that the noble Baroness has raised...

Show all contributions (161)

Lord Brett | 712 c318-9 (Link to this contribution) I thank noble Lords for their contribution to this debate in which a number of important points have...

Lord Ramsbotham | 712 c317-8 (Link to this contribution) I was very interested to hear the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, refer to the Victorian aspect of this...

Baroness Hanham | 712 c319-20 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to intervene, but my noble friend has just produced the briefing from the English Collect...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 712 c320 (Link to this contribution) I hate to press the Minister on this, but perhaps he could get a little more advice. If the order is...

Lord Brett | 712 c320 (Link to this contribution) It is reported to the court and, as I understand it, the original fine can then be instigated instea...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 712 c320 (Link to this contribution) Schedule 1 : Schedule to the Street Offences Act 1959 Amendment 70 70: Schedule 1, page 138, line ...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 712 c320 (Link to this contribution) This amendment aims to limit the time a person can be held after their arrest. Some doubt has been r...

Lord Brett | 712 c321-2 (Link to this contribution) As I understand it, Amendment 70 would impose an absolute limit of 24 hours on the period that the p...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 712 c307 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his offer to look again at the issue of safety between now and Report. In t...

Lord Brett | 712 c307 (Link to this contribution) I will certainly take on board and look at the question of safety. That is central to what we are se...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 712 c307 (Link to this contribution) I am slightly confused by the Minister’s comment. He mentioned at one point "maintaining" the positi...

Lord Brett | 712 c306-7 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness makes an interesting point. I presume that it would depend on the beat patterns i...

Baroness Morris of Bolton | 712 c309 (Link to this contribution) I support these amendments tabled by my noble friend and by the noble Baronesses, Lady Miller. Given...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 712 c309 (Link to this contribution) Our Amendment 68A is in this group. At this stage, before we debate clause stand part, I simply want...

Viscount Bridgeman | 712 c308 (Link to this contribution) Amendments 67 and 68 seek to probe further the requirement to attend meetings. In particular, I hope...

Viscount Bridgeman | 712 c307 (Link to this contribution) Clause 16: Orders requiring attendance at meetings Amendment 67 67: Clause 16, page 17, line 19, l...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 712 c311 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for giving way. I had intended to intervene a little earlier but the Minister...

Lord Brett | 712 c309-11 (Link to this contribution) These new orders will be available on conviction for loitering or soliciting for the purpose of pros...

Earl of Onslow | 712 c286 (Link to this contribution) If this is such an effective method of getting people into the system, why has it been used only fiv...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 712 c286-7 (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords who have spoken, especially those who put their name to my amendment. The no...

Lord Brett | 712 c286 (Link to this contribution) Because in the vast majority of cases we see and treat the victims as precisely that. In only five c...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 712 c304-5 (Link to this contribution) The Government made one positive move in the other place, when they removed the term "common prostit...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 712 c304 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 66 66: Clause 15, page 17, line 3, leave out "period of three months" and insert "one wee...

Viscount Bridgeman | 712 c305 (Link to this contribution) I have some sympathy with the amendment. I find it deeply frustrating that the Government continue t...

Lord Brett | 712 c306 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 66 seeks to amend aspects of Clause 15, notably the definition of persistence which this c...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 712 c305 (Link to this contribution) I also support the amendment. It makes perfect sense, really. To talk of conduct being persistent if...

Lord Brett | 712 c314 (Link to this contribution) The supervisor is someone already working in the voluntary sector in a special project. I am not abs...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 712 c314 (Link to this contribution) The Home Office assessment is that £180,000 a year will be allocated for this, which, if you assume ...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 712 c315-7 (Link to this contribution) Debate on whether Clause 16 should stand part of the Bill. We have just heard some of the problems...

Viscount Bridgeman | 712 c315 (Link to this contribution) All sides of the Committee will share the concern to get this enormously important subject of rehabi...

Lord Brett | 712 c315 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baronesses for their contributions. The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, asked whether w...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 712 c315 (Link to this contribution) I got my figures from the Home Office’s statistics of volumes. I am sure the Minister has seen them....

Lord Brett | 712 c314-5 (Link to this contribution) First, on cost, let me correct the position, as we may be misleading ourselves. The indication we ha...

Baroness Hanham | 712 c314 (Link to this contribution) The order will be for three meetings. That will be for the court. At the end of those three meetings...

Lord Brett | 712 c314 (Link to this contribution) I have to say that the last opinion of the noble Baroness does not conform to my experience of peopl...

Lord Brett | 712 c311 (Link to this contribution) It is, unfortunately, a truth that we hope not to experience too often. If an individual simply sees...

Viscount Bridgeman | 712 c313 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 68 68: Clause 16, page 17, leave out lines 22 to 25

Viscount Bridgeman | 712 c312 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to noble Lords who have spoken to this amendment. It is clearly a very involved subjec...

Lord Brett | 712 c312 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness asks two apposite questions. The answer is that it will be for the court to decid...

Baroness Hanham | 712 c311-2 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may try to get my mind around this. This is not a probation order; it is an alternative to...

Lord Brett | 712 c312 (Link to this contribution) In taking the decision to apply an order in preference to a fine, the courts will not need additiona...

Lord Ramsbotham | 712 c312 (Link to this contribution) What resources will the courts have available to decide? What resources can they call upon?

Baroness Stern | 712 c314 (Link to this contribution) I probably missed something that has already been said, but can the Minister explain who pays the su...

Lord Brett | 712 c278 (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Baroness is correct. I was trying to explain how this measure developed during...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 712 c279 (Link to this contribution) Debate on whether Clause 13, as amended, should stand part of the Bill. We had an extremely good d...

Baroness Stern | 712 c279-80 (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, in her opposition to Clause 13. Although I accept her pro...

Baroness Hanham | 712 c278-9 (Link to this contribution) We will certainly return to it later, depending on how Clause 13 goes. First, I am now a little more...

Lord West of Spithead | 712 c279 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 55 55: Clause 13, page 16, leave out lines 10 and 11 Amendment 55 agreed.

Lord West of Spithead | 712 c281 (Link to this contribution) Amendments 58 and 59 58: Clause 14, page 16, line 20, leave out "used force, deception or threats" ...

Lord West of Spithead | 712 c281 (Link to this contribution) Amendments 61 and 62 61: Clause 14, page 16, line 28, leave out "used force, deception or threats" ...

Baroness Hanham | 712 c280 (Link to this contribution) I want to comment briefly on what has been said by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller. The Government n...

Lord Brett | 712 c280-1 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness could say that Clause 13 has received something of a rough ride already. I could ...

Lord West of Spithead | 712 c281 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 64 64: Clause 14, page 16, leave out lines 33 and 34 Amendment 64 agreed. Clause 14, as...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 712 c281 (Link to this contribution) Clause 15: Amendment to offence of loitering etc for purposes of prostitution Amendment 65 65: Cla...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 712 c281-2 (Link to this contribution) The amendment has been proposed by the Standing Committee for Youth Justice, the Joint Committee on ...

Baroness Hanham | 712 c282-3 (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, in her amendment. It is entirely wrong that any child sho...

Earl of Onslow | 712 c283 (Link to this contribution) If a child is involved in prostitution, that child is deeply damaged, deeply hurt and in great dange...

Baroness Stern | 712 c283-4 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment to which my name is attached and thank the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, for ...

Baroness Morris of Bolton | 712 c284 (Link to this contribution) I was unable to speak on Second Reading, but I have been following the proceedings of the Bill very ...

Lord Ramsbotham | 712 c284-5 (Link to this contribution) I rise to support the amendment, and especially the comments of my noble friend Lady Stern. I remind...

Bishop of Chester | 712 c276 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may put it on the record that I said that four out of five women—80 per cent—engaged in pr...

Baroness Hanham | 712 c276 (Link to this contribution) One of the dangers of this discussion is that the figures vary depending on who you are talking abou...

Lord Brett | 712 c276 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 49 49: Clause 13, page 16, line 1, leave out "acted" and insert "engaged in that conduct"...

Lord Brett | 712 c276 (Link to this contribution) Amendments 51 and 52 51: Clause 13, page 16, line 6, leave out "used force, deception or threats" a...

Lord Brett | 712 c278 (Link to this contribution) As has been said, Amendments 53, 54 and 63 would increase the maximum penalty for the offences creat...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 712 c278 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the Minister will be kind enough to give way. I apologise for interrupting. As I understand ...

Baroness Hanham | 712 c277 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 53 53: Clause 13, page 16, leave out lines 8 and 9

Baroness Hanham | 712 c277 (Link to this contribution) We come to the last of the specific concerns that we and the interested organisations have with this...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 712 c277 (Link to this contribution) Our Amendments 54 and 63 are in this group. The logic of the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, is absolut...

Earl of Onslow | 712 c277-8 (Link to this contribution) My name has been added to this amendment, which seems to help the Government in their absolutely jus...

Baroness Hanham | 712 c276 (Link to this contribution) This has been an interesting little exchange, not all of it about the amendment. I am grateful for t...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 712 c276 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister sits down, I should like to give him a little moral support. My understanding fr...

Lord Brett | 712 c275 (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl is correct about sloppy thinking. I have heard that in this Chamber, but not only fro...

Earl of Onslow | 712 c275 (Link to this contribution) The Minister first said that the figure was 90 per cent and then said that he would trade that for "...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 712 c274 (Link to this contribution) It gives me some pleasure to be able to commend the Government for this group of amendments, particu...

Lord Desai | 712 c274 (Link to this contribution) I shall make a third attempt at this. This time, since I am going to support my noble friend, he mig...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 712 c275 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, but this is one of the key issues for a number of us. Where ha...

Lord Brett | 712 c275 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that it would be more accurate to say "up to 90 per cent". The right reverend Prelate earl...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 712 c274 (Link to this contribution) In so far as we still have to discuss Clause 13, because we have not yet decided to get rid of it, I...

Lord Brett | 712 c274-5 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate the contributions made and the support for the government amendments with which we are ...

Baroness Hanham | 712 c270-1 (Link to this contribution) I thank all those who have taken part in the debate. I am extremely grateful to the lawyers here who...

Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 712 c270 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister undertake to provide the Committee with the legal representations that he has rece...

Lord Brett | 712 c270 (Link to this contribution) I take on board the noble Lord’s point as requested. "Trafficked" in that sentence is shorthand. In ...

Lord Pannick | 712 c270 (Link to this contribution) I ask the Minister a non-legal question, because I do not want to irritate the noble Lord, Lord Bake...

Baroness Hanham | 712 c273-4 (Link to this contribution) As the Minister said, I tabled Amendment 48. I am extremely grateful to him for answering it before ...

Lord Brett | 712 c271 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 47 47: Clause 13, page 15, line 36, leave out "used force, deception or threats" and inse...

Lord Brett | 712 c271-3 (Link to this contribution) I shall also speak to Amendments 49, 51, 52, 55, 58, 59, 61, 62 and 64 in the name of my noble frien...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 712 c271 (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Baroness echo the request made by my noble friend Lord Maclennan that, before Report,...

Baroness Hanham | 712 c271 (Link to this contribution) If the Minister can do that, it would be extremely helpful. I am sure that the Government are going...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 712 c267 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is talking about a woman who has been raped, but that would be covered by the law of ra...

Lord Brett | 712 c267 (Link to this contribution) I note the ability and agility of the noble Earl to get to his feet before I have completed the answ...

Baroness Hanham | 712 c268 (Link to this contribution) However, I need to intervene. Does the Minister believe that the removal of any right of defence fro...

Lord Brett | 712 c267-8 (Link to this contribution) I shall complete the answer and take the noble Baroness’s point on board. First, we are satisfied th...

Lord Desai | 712 c269 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend replies, I add one element that is not moral but may be more economic. My nob...

Lord Brett | 712 c269 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend is a distinguished economist, but I do not necessarily accept on this occasion that ...

Lord Brett | 712 c268 (Link to this contribution) It is not analogous to an educational programme at all. The educational programme is in the endeavou...

Baroness Hanham | 712 c268 (Link to this contribution) In any court of law—and as a magistrate I see this all the time—the defendant has a defence. It is n...

Lord Brett | 712 c268-9 (Link to this contribution) I hear what the noble Baroness says. The amendments that we made in another place help to clarify t...

Bishop of Chester | 712 c269 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the Minister, in offering to take this away for legal consultation—although I entirely a...

Bishop of Chester | 712 c263-4 (Link to this contribution) In one of St Paul’s letters, he prefaces his argument by saying: ""I speak as a fool"." I can only ...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 712 c263 (Link to this contribution) I have put my name to this amendment. We have heard the legal arguments and I want to advance a litt...

Earl of Onslow | 712 c262-3 (Link to this contribution) The quote from Lord Reid that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, used is a stunningly great pri...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 712 c264-5 (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to speak on this part of the Bill, because I so profoundly agreed with the noble ...

Lord Brett | 712 c265-6 (Link to this contribution) I thank noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. Perhaps I may begin by responding to the po...

Lord Desai | 712 c264 (Link to this contribution) When you say that a person is paying for sex, you are already presuming his guilt. That is the probl...

Bishop of Chester | 712 c264 (Link to this contribution) In any interchange with the noble Lord, Lord Desai, too, I preface my remarks with the words of the ...

Earl of Onslow | 712 c267 (Link to this contribution) That was not the question asked. The question was whether the offence is so serious that it override...

Baroness Hanham | 712 c267 (Link to this contribution) Can I be absolutely clear about this? I have already made it clear that I am not a lawyer, so I spea...

Lord Brett | 712 c267 (Link to this contribution) The precise intent is that the person will have no defence, because this carries a strict liability....

Lord Brett | 712 c256 (Link to this contribution) My direct answer to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, would be that rich men exploiting trafficked prostit...

Baroness Stern | 712 c255-6 (Link to this contribution) I was asking whether the Minister has a response to the point of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas: that th...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 712 c256-7 (Link to this contribution) That has been an incredibly helpful debate in drawing out the confusion that lies behind the Governm...

Baroness Hanham | 712 c257 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 46 46: Clause 13, page 15, leave out lines 36 to 38 and insert "and knows, or ought to kn...

Baroness Hanham | 712 c258-9 (Link to this contribution) I remind the Committee that I am a serving magistrate, as I declared on a previous occasion. Inevita...

Lord Colwyn | 712 c259 (Link to this contribution) I must advise the Committee that if this amendment is agreed, I shall be unable to call Amendment 47...

Lord Pannick | 712 c260-1 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendments. I also am concerned about the strict liability element of the propos...

Lord Borrie | 712 c261-2 (Link to this contribution) I find myself in agreement with most of the criticisms made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloy...

Lord Baker of Dorking | 712 c262 (Link to this contribution) Having listened to the speeches of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, and of the nob...

Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 712 c254 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord moves on, with respect, he has not quite answered the point that I put to him,...

Lord Brett | 712 c255 (Link to this contribution) On the latter, the consultation has elicited quite a number of views; as I said at the beginning of ...

Baroness Stern | 712 c255 (Link to this contribution) I will pursue two points. The first is that of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas: that the outcome of this ...

Lord Brett | 712 c255 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for failing to convince anybody with my previous example. I shall try it again. You have...

Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 712 c255 (Link to this contribution) Not really. Surely when the police make this famous arrest, the activity in the brothel is likely to...

Lord Brett | 712 c254-5 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to give an example, which is always dangerous. If a brothel is under observation and it i...

Earl of Onslow | 712 c254 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend Lord Pearson of Rannoch is making the good point that to get a conviction you will h...

Lord Brett | 712 c254 (Link to this contribution) I shall finish this because I am dealing with the international scene. If we have close work with ot...

Earl of Onslow | 712 c254 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister give way?

Lord Brett | 712 c250-4 (Link to this contribution) I thank all the contributors to this debate. It was inevitable that it would not only spread across ...

Lord Lucas | 712 c249-50 (Link to this contribution) The position expressed by my noble friend Lord Waddington, which is that we should legislate to outl...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 712 c248-9 (Link to this contribution) I apologise that I was not able to take part in the debate on Second Reading. However, I have follow...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 712 c249 (Link to this contribution) Of course there must be contacts at this end. I would not deny that for a moment. However, I am also...

Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 712 c249 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may ask the noble Baroness for clarification, because of my ignorance. She says that most ...

Bishop of Chester | 712 c246 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Earl for his agreement. I think that the issue will emerge more sharply i...

Earl of Onslow | 712 c246 (Link to this contribution) I would not like the right reverend Prelate to think that when supporting the amendment I did not ta...

Baroness Stern | 712 c247-8 (Link to this contribution) I, too, have my name on the amendment. I am very glad that, despite the number of noble Lords who ha...

Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 712 c246-7 (Link to this contribution) I, too, apologise for intervening when I did not speak at Second Reading. However, a question has si...

Bishop of Chester | 712 c245-6 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, suggested that some of those who support the Government on this mat...

Lord Desai | 712 c244-5 (Link to this contribution) I support Amendment 45. I apologise to the Committee. I did not take part in the Second Reading deba...

Lord Waddington | 712 c243-4 (Link to this contribution) I find myself somewhat out of step, I fear, with my noble friends, although I do not think it will c...

Viscount Ullswater | 712 c239 (Link to this contribution) I must advise your Lordships that if Amendment 45 is agreed I will not be able to call Amendments 46...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 712 c238-9 (Link to this contribution) With this amendment we move to Part 2 of the Bill, which deals with sexual offences and sex establis...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 712 c238 (Link to this contribution) Clause 13: Paying for sexual services of a prostitute subjected to force etc: England and Wales Ame...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 712 c242-3 (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest as a vice-chairman of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Trafficking of Wome...

Lord Judd | 712 c242 (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl has emphasised that he has put his name to the amendment and that is greatly to his c...

Earl of Onslow | 712 c241-2 (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Baroness because of the failed version of the absolute offence produced in the o...

Baroness Hanham | 712 c239-41 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for tabling this amendment. It covers many of our concerns about this cla...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 712 c285 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller. It re-emphasises the fact th...

Viscount Bridgeman | 712 c313 (Link to this contribution) Following the last debate, I turn to the question of the "suitable person". Just as the Bill is larg...

Lord Brett | 712 c270 (Link to this contribution) First, the "we" is not the royal "we" but the governmental "we"—we in government. There is no intent...

Lord Brett | 712 c254 (Link to this contribution) I understand the point the noble Lord makes. The difference is simply that he is seeing this as a on...

Lord Brett | 712 c320 (Link to this contribution) I do not believe that is the case—I believe that what I have said is entirely correct. The 72 hours’...

Baroness Hanham | 712 c306 (Link to this contribution) Can I ask a practical question? What are the chances of the same beat officers being around twice in...

Lord Brett | 712 c285-6 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 65 concerns an extremely important issue in relation to the offence of loitering and solic...

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 712 c259-60 (Link to this contribution) I support this amendment for all the reasons that have been given by the noble Baroness and, very si...

Lord Blackwell | 712 c248 (Link to this contribution) I intervene briefly simply to ask the Minister to clarify one point. It is clear listening to this d...

Baroness Morris of Bolton | 712 c305 (Link to this contribution) I support the thoughts behind the noble Baroness’s amendment, and what my noble friend Lord Bridgema...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 712 c315 (Link to this contribution) I am a little confused. If the number is 300 cases throughout the entire UK, that is very small. Is ...

Lord Brett | 712 c313-4 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Viscount for his apposite questions, starting with what a supervisor is, and why w...

Lord Borrie | 712 c283 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, who introduced the amendment, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, ...

Subjects

Children

Crime prevention

Crime

Age

Advisory services

Human trafficking

Foreign nationals

Offenders

Northern Ireland

Police

Prostitution

Rehabilitation

Voluntary organisations

Young people

Sexual offences

Legislation

Policing and Crime Bill 2008-09

Link

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