Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL]

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Wednesday, 21 January 2009, in the House of Lords.

Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL]. Lords Committee stage second day. Clauses 2 to 22 agreed. New clause (Lords amendment 63) not moved. Lords amendment 67 to clause 16 disagreed on division (33 votes to 39).

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

706 c1672-728,1744-60

Session

2008-09

Department

Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
Department of Energy and Climate Change

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Marine and Coastal Access Bill (HL). Explanatory Notes HL Bill 1-EN also published.
Thursday, 4 December 2008
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Tyler | 706 c1672 (Link to this contribution) Clause 2: General objective Amendment 31 31: Clause 2, page 2, line 10, at end insert— ““( ) The M...

Lord Tyler | 706 c1673 (Link to this contribution) In moving Amendment 31, in the name of my noble friend Lord Greaves and me, I detect that the rapid ...

Show all contributions (141)

Lord Tyler | 706 c1673-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister. I know that he takes this seriously and I am glad to have that assura...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1673 (Link to this contribution) I have every sympathy with noble Lords who are interested in both Bills. I take very seriously the n...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1677-9 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that we all miss the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. He made what I thought would be a cameo app...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 706 c1677 (Link to this contribution) I echo the thanks and appreciation expressed to the Minister and his departmental officials for a ve...

Duke of Montrose | 706 c1679 (Link to this contribution) Will the existing co-operation arrangements within the fishing regime have any formal status, given ...

Duke of Montrose | 706 c1675 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to the amendments in the name of my noble friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach. In doing so,...

Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 706 c1676 (Link to this contribution) The meeting yesterday with the Minister was helpful and the maps provided transformed the scene for ...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 706 c1676 (Link to this contribution) I, too, found yesterday’s consultation extremely helpful in the context in which Amendment 31 is tab...

Lord Kingsland | 706 c1695 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. If I might seek to summarise the point that the...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1695-7 (Link to this contribution) I realise we are in danger of re-running an interesting debate but I am grateful to the noble Lord, ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1694-5 (Link to this contribution) It is a great pleasure to respond to a debate that in many ways takes us back to our substantive deb...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1697 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend has invited me to tread in somewhat dangerous waters in anticipating future legislat...

Baroness Byford | 706 c1697-8 (Link to this contribution) I want to ask two questions. Is there a definition anywhere of ““sustainable development””? I do not...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 706 c1697 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful that my noble friend and his officials have evidently begun to think hard about these ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1698 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can respond in kind. I frequently find that I have the effect of creating consensus around...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1698 (Link to this contribution) The requirement for the Secretary of State to give guidance is also contained in Clause 2. Clearly, ...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 706 c1698 (Link to this contribution) I hope that it will reassure my noble friend that during Committee we hope to introduce a series of ...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 706 c1689 (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend’s Amendment 32. I accept that Amendment 33 has merits, too. Both attempt f...

Lord Eden of Winton | 706 c1689-90 (Link to this contribution) I have great sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport, who regretted that he was unable...

Lord Oxburgh | 706 c1690-1 (Link to this contribution) Amendments 33 and 179 are wholly admirable and I support them in their entirety. I will talk a littl...

Lord Bridges | 706 c1691 (Link to this contribution) I make a brief intervention arising from local knowledge. I am attracted by paragraph (e), on ““heri...

Baroness Byford | 706 c1691-2 (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend’s two amendments. Although the Minister shook his head when he said that h...

Lord Greenway | 706 c1692 (Link to this contribution) Like the noble Baroness who has just spoken, I remind the Committee that the Joint Committee conside...

Lord Kingsland | 706 c1692-3 (Link to this contribution) In our first day in Committee, I promoted an amendment to Clause 2 that would require the Government...

Baroness Young of Old Scone | 706 c1693-4 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may lay a gentle challenge to the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, on his point about vital infr...

Lord Greenway | 706 c1694 (Link to this contribution) The wind farms will proliferate quite remarkably during the next few years, so the problem may not b...

Duke of Montrose | 706 c1685 (Link to this contribution) Can the noble Baroness give the Committee the nuts and bolts of the Sandford principle? At one point...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 706 c1683-4 (Link to this contribution) This is an important group of amendments, as the noble, Lord Tyler, said. I am speaking to my Amendm...

Baroness Young of Old Scone | 706 c1684-5 (Link to this contribution) I rise to promote Amendment 179, to which I have gladly added my name. At the moment, this issue fee...

Lord Tyler | 706 c1682-3 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 32 reflects to some extent the anxieties expressed when the Committee last studied the Bil...

Baroness Hooper | 706 c1688 (Link to this contribution) I follow the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, in supporting this group of amendments, in particular Amendme...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1686 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend has reminded me that I did not respond to the question he raised in our first debate...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 706 c1686-8 (Link to this contribution) That is interesting and characteristically helpful. It advances us a little because the Explanatory ...

Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 706 c1685-6 (Link to this contribution) There is quite a lot to commend the approach in Amendment 33 in that, if you are a member of this bo...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 706 c1686 (Link to this contribution) I want to speak to Amendment 33, although I think the other amendments in the group are very useful....

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1679-80 (Link to this contribution) I do not think there is. That shows that it is often unnecessary to lay it down in statute because, ...

Lord Crickhowell | 706 c1680-1 (Link to this contribution) I hesitate to enter this debate, as I have not taken any part in it up to now. I particularly wanted...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1681 (Link to this contribution) That is an interesting comment. When the noble Lord talked about the angst of Scottish fishermen and...

Lord Tyler | 706 c1682 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister; that is helpful. When we see what he comes forward with, we will undo...

Lord Tyler | 706 c1682 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 32 32: Clause 2, page 2, line 10, at end insert— ““( ) The MMO’s general objective includ...

Lord Tyler | 706 c1681 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all Members of the Committee who have contributed to this short debate. It has been...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1681-2 (Link to this contribution) I have two comments. First, although the situation is complex, I hope that the Bill will emerge in s...

Lord Tyler | 706 c1682 (Link to this contribution) As always, the Minister is reassuring. However, we are all aware that the dialogue between the Unite...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1682 (Link to this contribution) It might help if I write to Members of the Committee setting out how we see the concordat working an...

Earl Cathcart | 706 c1706-7 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that, which is where we will have to leave this. I hope that the noble Lord...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 706 c1707 (Link to this contribution) Clause 10: Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 Amendment 58 58: Clause 10, page 6, line 3, leave out...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1706 (Link to this contribution) In the formal terms of the guidance within the provisions of Clause 2, I would wish to stick to the ...

Lord Kingsland | 706 c1706 (Link to this contribution) The Minister asked me, in broad terms, whether I found his reply helpful. I always find replies from...

Earl Cathcart | 706 c1706 (Link to this contribution) When I moved this, I thought that it would be a quick and easy debate—but obviously it never is. I w...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1706 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State ““is to give”” does not quite seem to be ““must””. However, I reassure the no...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 706 c1708 (Link to this contribution) I should say that my name is Lord Taylor of Holbeach. Holbeach is just where I come from; Taylor is ...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 706 c1707-8 (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Lord’s amendment. I will speak at greater length when I move my amendments. He h...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 706 c1707 (Link to this contribution) With one bound we are free to turn to page 6 of the Bill. Amendment 58 is a probing amendment to cla...

Earl Cathcart | 706 c1709-11 (Link to this contribution) In moving Amendment 59 and speaking to Amendment 61, we seek to clarify the relationship between the...

Baroness Fookes | 706 c1711 (Link to this contribution) I should point out that if the amendment were to be carried, I could not call Amendments 60 or 60A b...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 706 c1711-3 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendment 60A, which is grouped with this amendment. With this modestly titled cla...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 706 c1708 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is right on both counts. I apologise to him for getting his name wrong. I was so busy...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1708-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord and the noble Baroness for their contributions on this amendment. I ...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 706 c1709 (Link to this contribution) One of our concerns was that the legislation was meant to convey exactly what the Minister has said:...

Earl Cathcart | 706 c1709 (Link to this contribution) Clause 12: Certain consents under Electricity Act 1989 Amendment 59 59: Clause 12, page 6, line 32...

Duke of Montrose | 706 c1713 (Link to this contribution) I add my support to my noble friend’s Amendment 61 and ask the Minister to say how he regards the wo...

Lord Taylor of Warwick | 706 c1699 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for indicating how strongly he believes it is going to be possible to find a re...

Lord Tyler | 706 c1699-700 (Link to this contribution) This rejection of all lists comes curiously from a Minister who recently was part of a Government wh...

Lord Tyler | 706 c1699 (Link to this contribution) In responding to the debate on this group of amendments led by Amendment 32 I endorse entirely what ...

Lord Tyler | 706 c1701 (Link to this contribution) By contrast, this is a simple drafting amendment. I am sure that the Minister and other Members of t...

Lord Tyler | 706 c1701 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 35 35: Clause 2, page 2, line 16, leave out ““that area”” and insert ““the UK marine area...

Lord Tyler | 706 c1700-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful, but the Minister also said that there were drafting issues. I was not clear whether t...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1700 (Link to this contribution) I must make myself clear. I clearly acknowledged that Members of the Committee feel that the provisi...

Duke of Montrose | 706 c1701-2 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, has here proposed some very sensible amendments, which echo some of the ...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1702-3 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, has suggested that this was a drafting amendment; I winced a little at t...

Lord Tyler | 706 c1703 (Link to this contribution) As always, I shall read with great care in Hansard precisely what the Minister has said. My first re...

Earl Cathcart | 706 c1703 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 52 52: Clause 2, page 2, line 30, at end insert— ““(5A) Guidance issued under subsection ...

Earl Cathcart | 706 c1703-4 (Link to this contribution) This is the last group of amendments to Clause 2. Amendment 52 introduces a timeframe for the guidan...

Lord Tyler | 706 c1704 (Link to this contribution) I speak briefly to Amendment 53 and endorse the point made by the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, about t...

Lord Kingsland | 706 c1704 (Link to this contribution) In his response, will the Minister say something about the relationship between guidance, directions...

Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 706 c1704 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister tell us when the Secretary of State for Environment at Westminster will consult all...

Lord Cameron of Lochbroom | 706 c1706 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the Minister can help me on the meaning of ““is to give”” in Clause 2(3). Is that ““must”” o...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1705-6 (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, seeks to amend Clause 2(3), the effect of which would be to ensure th...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 706 c1746 (Link to this contribution) Clause 15 : Agreement between the MMO and eligible bodies Amendment 64A 64A: Clause 15, page 9, li...

Duke of Montrose | 706 c1745-6 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister. That is reassuring from the Scottish point of view because there is a very del...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1745 (Link to this contribution) That is not the function of the MMO. Existing responsibilities lie where they do. We will only see t...

Duke of Montrose | 706 c1745 (Link to this contribution) Could the Minister reconfirm a previous point; namely, that the MMO will not be asked to enter into ...

Duke of Montrose | 706 c1744 (Link to this contribution) I wish to move Amendment 64, which stands in the name of my noble friend Lord Taylor. This is a simp...

Duke of Montrose | 706 c1744 (Link to this contribution) Clause 14: Agreements between the Secretary of State and the MMO Amendment 64 64: Clause 14, page ...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1728 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House do now resume. Before adding the additional comment about when the Comm...

Lord Davies of Coity | 706 c1728 (Link to this contribution) This Bill is widely welcome, but by people who want it to work. I used the example of the Severn bar...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1749 (Link to this contribution) Just before the noble Baroness sits down, I understand that she is making an entirely valid point. T...

Baroness Young of Old Scone | 706 c1747-8 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Coity, is not in his place because, although I apprec...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1747 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the noble Lord if it seemed that I was trying to pre-empt his contribution to the deb...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 706 c1748-9 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his clear and unequivocal response to Amendment 65A. On Amendment 64A, I wi...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1748 (Link to this contribution) I hear the noble Baroness’s anxiety on this point and we all know with what authority she speaks. I ...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 706 c1747 (Link to this contribution) I have a few words to say on the amendment because I welcome it. I am pleased that the noble Barones...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1747 (Link to this contribution) I can—

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1717 (Link to this contribution) With the greatest respect, since I had the pleasure of dealing with that legislation, I should point...

Lord Tyler | 706 c1717 (Link to this contribution) I deliberately waited before I spoke to Amendments 60, 62 and 71, which are in my name and that of o...

Baroness Young of Old Scone | 706 c1716-7 (Link to this contribution) I was about to talk about Amendment 71, which I might add, since we are talking about flabby definit...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 706 c1719 (Link to this contribution) I hope noble Lords will forgive me for moving positions. The Committee has already heard from two of...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 706 c1718-9 (Link to this contribution) I draw the Committee’s attention to my debate of 13 December 2007 on the Severn barrage. I have a gr...

Lord Tyler | 706 c1717-8 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that is fair, with due respect to the Minister. Every Bill that comes before your Lor...

Lord Crickhowell | 706 c1714-6 (Link to this contribution) I am tempted to follow the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Coity, down the route of debating the Severn b...

Lord Greenway | 706 c1720 (Link to this contribution) I should like to reply to the question posed just now by the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, regarding the ...

Duke of Montrose | 706 c1725 (Link to this contribution) The Minister said that he was not keen to consider my noble friend’s Amendment 61, on which I asked ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1725 (Link to this contribution) Ah. I do not know whether he would care to repeat the point—or perhaps I could write to him on that....

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1725 (Link to this contribution) That is a very kind invitation and all noble Lords will probably be relieved if I take the noble Duk...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1726-7 (Link to this contribution) I think that the noble Lord has got it right, but I will just check that to make sure. I am pretty s...

Lord Crickhowell | 706 c1725 (Link to this contribution) I did not have the great pleasure of listening to the Minister debating the Planning Act. I just wan...

Lord Davies of Coity | 706 c1727-8 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 63 63: After Clause 13, insert the following new Clause— ““MMO’s power of veto over natio...

Earl Cathcart | 706 c1727 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that full reply. I am not sure that it is the reply that the Committee want...

Duke of Montrose | 706 c1725 (Link to this contribution) It was electricity generation.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1720-5 (Link to this contribution) This has been an extremely interesting debate that takes us back a little bit to the debate that som...

Earl Cathcart | 706 c1757 (Link to this contribution) We support this amendment, which was very ably put by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller. We support th...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1757 (Link to this contribution) Noble Lords are anticipating my reply rather more enthusiastically than I am. I am all too well awar...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 706 c1756 (Link to this contribution) Clause 20 : Agreements with local authorities Amendment 69A 69A: Clause 20, page 12, line 3, leave...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 706 c1756-7 (Link to this contribution) In Clause 20 the Bill talks about what sort of agreements can be made with local authorities. A minu...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 706 c1755 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that response. The amendment does not focus on the list to which the Minist...

Lord Kingsland | 706 c1754 (Link to this contribution) I briefly intervene in this, so far, short debate to ask the Minister whether he is satisfied that, ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1754-5 (Link to this contribution) The quick answer is that if the organisation to which a delegation is proposed does not have objecti...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 706 c1753-4 (Link to this contribution) This group includes a couple of amendments by the noble Lords, Lord Greaves and Lord Tyler. I tabled...

Lord Tyler | 706 c1754 (Link to this contribution) As the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, said, Tyler and Taylor are speaking on this amendment with one voice...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 706 c1753 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 67 67: Clause 16, page 10, line 1, leave out subsection (3) and insert— ““(3) The Secreta...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 706 c1752 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reply, the nature of which shows that this has been an important discu...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1752 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to intervene, but the accountability of the Marine Management Organisation to the Secreta...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 706 c1753 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for drawing attention to the central role of the Secretary of State, who will h...

Viscount Simon | 706 c1753 (Link to this contribution) I must advise your Lordships that I cannot call Amendments 68 or 69 if Amendment 67 is agreed to.

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 706 c1749 (Link to this contribution) Clause 16 : Eligible bodies Amendment 66 66: Clause 16, page 9, line 35, leave out paragraph (b)

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 706 c1749-50 (Link to this contribution) The amendment carries on the debate from where we were last time, because it is another interface-ty...

Lord Judd | 706 c1750 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the noble Lord will forgive me if I say that the amendment is rather unhelpful and that ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1750-2 (Link to this contribution) I welcome my noble friend’s support in this important matter. I look forward to his future attendanc...

Lord Greaves | 706 c1757 (Link to this contribution) I have been arguing about ““trivial local government matters””, as some would say, all afternoon, so...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 706 c1759-60 (Link to this contribution) At this point I miss my noble friend Lady Hamwee, who, as the Minister knows, is not able to be here...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1757-9 (Link to this contribution) I was coming to that. In my comments about local authorities, I was not suggesting for one moment th...

Baroness Young of Old Scone | 706 c1685 (Link to this contribution) The noble Duke has caught me on the hop, as I do not have the piece of paper describing the Sandford...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1699 (Link to this contribution) I should have referred to the noble Baroness’s remarks about the real problem of attempting to appro...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 706 c1744-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, for the way in which he moved the amendment, ...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 706 c1749 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has eloquently made a case for accepting my amendment, which would simply insert ““(or ...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 706 c1746-7 (Link to this contribution) The two amendments in this group cover the relationship between the MMO and eligible bodies. The fir...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 706 c1675 (Link to this contribution) These are helpful probing amendments. Perhaps I may probe in particular whether the Government expec...

Lord Davies of Coity | 706 c1713-4 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendment 63, which stands in my name, and not Amendment 62. This amendment follows...

Baroness Wilcox | 706 c1719-20 (Link to this contribution) I support Amendment 59, moved by my noble friend Lord Cathcart some 45 minutes ago. I am sure that t...

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Common fisheries policy

Coastal areas

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