Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL]

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Monday, 12 January 2009, in the House of Lords.

Marine and Coastal Access Bill (HL). Lords Committee stage first day. Clause 1 agreed to. Schedules 1 and 2 agreed to. Clause 2 under consideration.

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

706 c1014-23,1035-73,1084-1106

Session

2008-09

Department

Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Marine and Coastal Access Bill (HL). Explanatory Notes HL Bill 1-EN also published.
Thursday, 4 December 2008
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1087-8 (Link to this contribution) First, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, for introducing this group of amendments, and the noble ...

Duke of Montrose | 706 c1088 (Link to this contribution) I referred in my speech at Second Reading to that joint ministerial meeting. One can well see that a...

Show all contributions (141)

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1088 (Link to this contribution) No, I do not think that it means that at all, but we are able to give the MMO certain functions that...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 706 c1088-9 (Link to this contribution) The Minister’s answers were very helpful except for his last sentence, which negatived the upshot of...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 706 c1084-5 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 16 16: Schedule 1, page 217, line 14, at end insert— ““(3A) The MMO shall, no later tha...

Duke of Montrose | 706 c1085-6 (Link to this contribution) The amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, promotes transparency between the various Execut...

Lord Greaves | 706 c1086-7 (Link to this contribution) Briefly, I support both amendments in the group, which were introduced by my noble friend Lord Livse...

Lord Geddes | 706 c1089 (Link to this contribution) With regard to Amendment 20, for the record I should point out that there is an error in the Marshal...

Lord Geddes | 706 c1089 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 18 has already been spoken to and not moved. Schedule 1 agreed. Schedule 2 : Minor and c...

Lord Greenway | 706 c1097-8 (Link to this contribution) The Joint Committee certainly suggested that there should be a duty on the MMO to further sustainabl...

Lord Tyler | 706 c1098 (Link to this contribution) I shall refer briefly to Amendment 28A, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Young. I had not intended...

Baroness Young of Old Scone | 706 c1093-5 (Link to this contribution) I have the terrible feeling that I am about to make a Second Reading speech, which is rather sad at ...

Lord Greaves | 706 c1095-7 (Link to this contribution) I have Amendments 27, 46, 85, 89 and 180 in this group. The noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone,...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 706 c1091 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to my Amendments 25, 26 and 44, which are grouped with Amendment 21. Amendment 25 ret...

Baroness Byford | 706 c1092 (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend’s original amendment. The general objectives in the Bill are a little wool...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 706 c1089-91 (Link to this contribution) Clause 2: General objective Amendment 21 21: Clause 2, page 2, line 2, leave out subsection (1)...

Lord Geddes | 706 c1091 (Link to this contribution) I must advise the Committee that if Amendment 21 is agreed to, I will be unable to call Amendments 2...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1098-9 (Link to this contribution) This has been an interesting and informative debate. I say in response to the noble Baroness, Lady B...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1100 (Link to this contribution) That is a fair question, to which I was going to come later, but I am quite happy to answer it now. ...

Baroness Byford | 706 c1099 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for explaining that, but if the various players who have responsibilit...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1101 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not know anything about Secretaries of State and whims—I do not recognise that. There...

Lord Greaves | 706 c1101 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister not understand that we are saying that we want more of that policy construct in th...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1100-1 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that anything that my colleague wrote in that report is at all inconsistent with the ...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 706 c1100 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for giving way, but there we have it: the marine policy statements can vary fro...

Baroness Byford | 706 c1102-3 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can give a slightly better, more relevant, example. The huge proliferation of wind farms h...

Lord Greaves | 706 c1102 (Link to this contribution) If it went to the Thames estuary, surely the MMO would be deeply involved.

Lord Glentoran | 706 c1102 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness is laughing. We are old adversaries. I could not let the noble Baroness, Lady You...

Baroness Young of Old Scone | 706 c1101-2 (Link to this contribution) Would the noble Lord give way for a moment? I know it is late at night. I will give an example that ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1103-4 (Link to this contribution) As I was saying, I will not respond on Heathrow at all; that is way above my pay grade. No doubt we ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1106 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord should not take too much encouragement from that.

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 706 c1105-6 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that response and for his good-natured tolerance of the discursive nature o...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 706 c1106 (Link to this contribution) I was just about to depart feeling rather good. Let us hope that perhaps it is the wording for the m...

Lord Brougham and Vaux | 706 c1073 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 18 has been wrongly marshalled. Amendment 18 not moved. House resumed.

Lord Greaves | 706 c1072-3 (Link to this contribution) There is some confusion between paragraph 28 of Schedule 1, which refers to the provision of account...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 706 c1072 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the Minister; I was trying to be helpful. I am also trying to be helpful in speaking ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1072 (Link to this contribution) I think that I referred correctly to Clause 27, which sets out the provision of information by the M...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 706 c1072 (Link to this contribution) I think the noble Lord will find that that is set out in Clause 28 rather than Clause 27. Without be...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1071-2 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, seeks to impose a requirement that the MMO in its annual report to the...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 706 c1070-1 (Link to this contribution) I support Amendment 14 moved by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, and I shall speak to our Amendments 15...

Lord Greaves | 706 c1069-70 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 14 14: Schedule 1, page 217, line 10, at end insert ““and how it has taken steps to del...

Lord Greaves | 706 c1069 (Link to this contribution) If Committee stage is to work, on things like this the Minister should go away and rewrite the provi...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1069 (Link to this contribution) I am saying that we do not need to get into a tangle in the debate. My advice is that this is standa...

Lord Greaves | 706 c1068-9 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that any of us disagrees with what the Minister has said about the procedure which wo...

Baroness Hamwee | 706 c1068 (Link to this contribution) That is precisely the point I want to make. Earlier, I referred to Government arguments in the previ...

Lord Greaves | 706 c1069 (Link to this contribution) No one is arguing about any of that. The tangle arises from this amendment. The Minister is in a tan...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1069 (Link to this contribution) That refers to the authorisation. We are in danger of getting ourselves in a tangle. Clearly, the ci...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1068 (Link to this contribution) The reassurance for the noble Baroness is paragraph 20(2), which states: "““The MMO must keep a reco...

Baroness Hamwee | 706 c1067 (Link to this contribution) I too had trouble with this paragraph. I waited to hear the Minister, who has not answered my noble ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1068 (Link to this contribution) As the noble and learned Lord said, paragraph 22 states: "““The MMO may authorise a committee, sub-c...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 706 c1068 (Link to this contribution) The paragraph allows the MMO to delegate to more than one person. It does not follow that because it...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1064 (Link to this contribution) I understand that. These matters will have to be worked through by the MMO in discussion with my dep...

Lord Tyler | 706 c1064-5 (Link to this contribution) My question follows from the exchanges that have just taken place. I am the complete naive layman. I...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1064 (Link to this contribution) These matters are still under discussion. As I was saying, one would not want to waste resources by ...

Lord Oxburgh | 706 c1064 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may elaborate slightly. There is a big difference between having your scientists in-house ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1062-4 (Link to this contribution) Of course, the Marine Management Organisation must take objective decisions on the basis of the best...

Lord Oxburgh | 706 c1064 (Link to this contribution) Will the Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science receive extra resources to suppor...

Lord Kingsland | 706 c1062 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the Minister for intervening at this stage and breaking up the flow of his eloquence,...

Lord Kingsland | 706 c1065 (Link to this contribution) It is a point of substance.

Lord Kingsland | 706 c1065 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have participated in this debate and to the Minister for h...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1065 (Link to this contribution) That is a leading question from a very clever lawyer, if I may say so.

Lord Kingsland | 706 c1066 (Link to this contribution) That is a different argument from the one that the Minister deployed previously. I understood him to...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1066 (Link to this contribution) No, I was simply trying to describe the context in which the MMO takes its decisions. I would always...

Lord Kingsland | 706 c1066 (Link to this contribution) That is precisely its intention. Its whole intention is to say that this consideration is above all ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1065 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, it is. The advice that I have received is that Clause 2 on the general objective, particular...

Lord Kingsland | 706 c1065 (Link to this contribution) Has the Minister received the best evidence available from his advisers?

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1065 (Link to this contribution) Of course.

Lord Kingsland | 706 c1065 (Link to this contribution) I would have expected nothing less from him. It follows from what he says that I shall return to thi...

Lord Greaves | 706 c1066-7 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 13 13: Schedule 1, page 216, line 6, leave out sub-paragraph (3) Amendment 13 stands a...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1067 (Link to this contribution) This matter is reasonably straightforward. Since the MMO board members alone cannot carry out all th...

Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 706 c1055-6 (Link to this contribution) I am increasingly anxious that the letter that the Minister promised about interaction between the d...

Lord Oxburgh | 706 c1056 (Link to this contribution) I am very much in sympathy with the amendment, but, on this occasion, the Minister is right, because...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 706 c1054 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 7 7: Schedule 1, page 212, line 28, at end insert— ““Nomination by other bodies The Comm...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1055 (Link to this contribution) I agreed with everything that the noble Lord said, except on the terms of his amendment. He is absol...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 706 c1056 (Link to this contribution) I agree very much with what has just been said. There is a conflict of interest about the nomination...

Lord Kingsland | 706 c1056-8 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 12 12: Schedule 1, page 215, line 5, at end insert— ““( ) In appointing other employees...

Lord Eden of Winton | 706 c1058-9 (Link to this contribution) I support what my noble friend has said. It is extremely important that relevant scientific evidence...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 706 c1059 (Link to this contribution) I would like to be able to support the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, in his Amendment 28, as his aspir...

Baroness Hamwee | 706 c1059 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister comment on the phrase ““consistent and co-ordinated”” in Clause 2, to which the no...

Lord Geddes | 706 c1059-60 (Link to this contribution) I warmly endorse my noble friend’s amendment on two grounds. I suspect—although I hope that I am wro...

Lord Oxburgh | 706 c1060 (Link to this contribution) I add my support to the amendment. Whether the wording is right or not remains to be seen, but the i...

Lord Greenway | 706 c1060 (Link to this contribution) On the question of mapping raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, in chairing the Joint Committe...

Earl of Selborne | 706 c1060-1 (Link to this contribution) I follow that contribution also as a member of the Joint Committee, although not quite as good at at...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 706 c1061 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that I did not attend the Joint Committee as perfectly as the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, b...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1061-2 (Link to this contribution) This has been an interesting debate. The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, has laid these amendments to en...

Baroness Byford | 706 c1050 (Link to this contribution) From what the Minister has said, there is no specific quorum at all. It could ultimately be just one...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1049 (Link to this contribution) Paragraph 19 of Schedule 1 says: "““Subject to the following provisions of this Schedule, the MMO ma...

Lord Glentoran | 706 c1049 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for having been in and out this afternoon. What will be the quorum for a board of five, ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1048-9 (Link to this contribution) This has been an interesting and helpful debate. The Government will of course reflect on the views ...

Lord Greenway | 706 c1048 (Link to this contribution) I remind the Committee that the Joint Committee recommended that the MMO should establish a scientif...

Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 706 c1048 (Link to this contribution) Listening to this extremely interesting and important debate, my mind goes back to the wisdom in the...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 706 c1047 (Link to this contribution) We have heard that the board will be small, but it would be helpful if the Minister could say someth...

Lord Kingsland | 706 c1047 (Link to this contribution) It would be wrong for me to anticipate my amendments, which will follow shortly. Perhaps I may just ...

Lord Oxburgh | 706 c1047 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that I have any special interest to declare except that in the distant past I was a m...

Baroness Byford | 706 c1046-7 (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend’s amendment and especially its mention of, "““knowledge of marine science ...

Lord Greaves | 706 c1053-4 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the Minister for repeating that, because that was a particular thing that he s...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1053 (Link to this contribution) I reiterate that it is possible that from time to time if members resign, the board might go down to...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1050-2 (Link to this contribution) That is a very reasonable line to adopt on many matters. It is expected that when the MMO is up and ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1052 (Link to this contribution) I thought that I did respond to that briefly at the beginning. Our prime duty must be to ensure that...

Lord Tyler | 706 c1050 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that any of us were asking the Minister to micro-manage. However, he might indicate w...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1050 (Link to this contribution) I am hesitant to start micro-managing the affairs of a board that is not yet established. It is perf...

Baroness Hamwee | 706 c1050 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister share with noble Lords the Government’s thinking on the maximum number or ceiling?...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1050 (Link to this contribution) I shall resist answering that question. It is sensible for the board to come to a view on what the q...

Lord Eden of Winton | 706 c1037-8 (Link to this contribution) I have much sympathy with what the noble Baroness has said and understand why she wants in the Bill ...

Lord Greaves | 706 c1023 (Link to this contribution) That is true, just as it is for terrestrial environment issues. Lots of people write to us about qua...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1039-40 (Link to this contribution) It is a great pleasure to welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, to our debates. In a sense, this ...

Baroness Hamwee | 706 c1039 (Link to this contribution) The criticism of my noble friend’s amendment is that the term ““public interest”” may not be suffici...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 706 c1038-9 (Link to this contribution) It is hard to argue with the noble Baroness’s introduction of the amendment, but the MMO has such a ...

Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 706 c1038 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend is quite right: one could quite easily expand the purposes of this body until it bur...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1022 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. Do not the number of letters sent to noble Lords by ...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 706 c1040-1 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to Members of the Committee who have spoken. To the noble Lord, Lord Eden of Wint...

Lord Greaves | 706 c1041-3 (Link to this contribution) Schedule 1: The Marine Management Organisation Amendment 6 6: Schedule 1, page 212, line 22, lea...

Lord Eden of Winton | 706 c1044 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, in that it opens up the question of t...

Earl Cathcart | 706 c1043-4 (Link to this contribution) I declare that I have been a local councillor for 10 years and a member of a number of conservation ...

Baroness Young of Old Scone | 706 c1045 (Link to this contribution) I support the view that this body needs a strong focus on marine science and environmental conservat...

Earl of Selborne | 706 c1044 (Link to this contribution) I support Amendment 9. I should, however, declare an interest as chair of the advisory board of the ...

Lord Tyler | 706 c1046 (Link to this contribution) I shall contribute briefly, not least because I wanted to congratulate my noble friend Lady Hamwee o...

Baroness Hamwee | 706 c1045-6 (Link to this contribution) I agree with those noble Lords who have talked about perspectives, as the noble Baroness just did. I...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 706 c1041 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister. I sense that a small chink has opened up to suggest that between now ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1041 (Link to this contribution) We need to draw a distinction between whether the words ““public interest”” should appear in the Bil...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1021 (Link to this contribution) That is a fair question. It is true that later amendments will come back to this point. In this firs...

Baroness Byford | 706 c1021 (Link to this contribution) I thought that the organisation being a champion of the seas would come up in later debates, so I ma...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1021 (Link to this contribution) At Second Reading, I promised to send noble Lords a memorandum relating to devolution and the points...

Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 706 c1020-1 (Link to this contribution) To what extent does this body relate to Scotland? Clause 313(4) states that Part 1 relates to Scotla...

Lord Greaves | 706 c1022 (Link to this contribution) We have done so without any filibustering from me, and for that reason if for no other, I am gratefu...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1022 (Link to this contribution) I am not aware of any objections, but if I find that members or potential members of staff have rais...

Lord Clinton-Davis | 706 c1022 (Link to this contribution) Am I right in saying that the maritime unions have raised no objections to the name of this organisa...

Baroness Young of Old Scone | 706 c1019-20 (Link to this contribution) I was not planning to intervene, because until the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, illuminated what he int...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1020 (Link to this contribution) That is a very interesting comment. The noble Baroness and I share experience of the National Health...

Lord Greenway | 706 c1020 (Link to this contribution) I wondered why the Minister was a little surprised when I mentioned at Second Reading that it was my...

Lord Greaves | 706 c1014-6 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 1 1: Clause 1, page 1, line 6, leave out ““Management Organisation (““the MMO””)”” and i...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 706 c1016-7 (Link to this contribution) I should declare an interest. We are a long way from coastal access but I am a farmer and involved i...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1018-9 (Link to this contribution) I do not agree with the noble Lord. As I explained, a central part of the remit of the proposed orga...

Lord Tyler | 706 c1018 (Link to this contribution) The Minister may look specifically at paragraph 46 of the Explanatory Notes, where the Government st...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 706 c1056 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that, because it will be useful. I hope that the Chamber will forgive me fo...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1056 (Link to this contribution) In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy, I will ensure that the note is sent out within the ...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 706 c1052 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister reply to my question about the different regions? Obviously, they are vastly diffe...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1017-8 (Link to this contribution) We have made a splendid, non-consensual start to our debates in Committee. I am aware that we are en...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 706 c1065-6 (Link to this contribution) The MMO must take its decisions on the basis of the objectives laid down in the Act in the context o...

Earl Cathcart | 706 c1061 (Link to this contribution) We, of course, agree with the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Kingsland, which follow on f...

Lord Greaves | 706 c1052-3 (Link to this contribution) I thank everyone who has taken part in the debate. I was a bit worried about plunging—if that is the...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 706 c1035-7 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 2 2: Clause 1, page 1, line 7, at end insert— ““(1A) The purpose of the MMO is to repres...

Subjects

Devolved matters

Accountability

Coastal areas

Airports

Environment protection

Qualifications

Pay

Membership

Public appointments

Public interest

Planning