Regulatory Enforcement and Sanctions Bill [HL]
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
698 c327-78GC
Session
2007-08
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Regulatory Enforcement and Sanctions Bill (HL). (Explanatory Notes HL Bill 7-EN published).
Thursday, 8 November 2007
Bills
House of Lords
Thursday, 8 November 2007
Bills
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord De Mauley | 698 c366GC (Link to this contribution)
I support Amendments Nos. 118 and 119 tabled by my noble friend Lord Goodlad. They tackle the import...
Lord Colwyn | 698 c378GC (Link to this contribution)
The Committee stands adjourned until Wednesday 6 February at 3.45 pm.
Show all contributions (126)
Lord Razzall | 698 c347GC (Link to this contribution)
I shall read what the Minister said in Hansard, but, as he said, there is not much between us on thi...
Lord Bach | 698 c350-1GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendments Nos. 110A, 111 and 111ZA propose additions to Schedule 5. Prior to the Bill being introdu...
Lord Razzall | 698 c353GC (Link to this contribution)
The Minister has lifted a further veil on the Government’s position, because what we have been told ...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 698 c356GC (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful to the Minister, but must confess that I am currently quite confused. I had thoug...
Lord Cope of Berkeley | 698 c357GC (Link to this contribution)
Is it a summary of the Minister’s reply to say that a fixed monetary penalty can vary?
Lord De Mauley | 698 c371GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 121:
121: Clause 38, page 15, line 35, leave out ““requiring”” and insert ““of...
Baroness Wilcox | 698 c371GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment No. 128 is there, and my noble friend does not want to intervene.
Lord De Mauley | 698 c371-2GC (Link to this contribution)
I am very grateful to the Minister. I was not raising a new point; all I was saying was that our vie...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c372GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 122:
122: Clause 38, page 15, line 36, at end insert—
““( ) where the person o...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c373GC (Link to this contribution)
The requirement for the sanction to be notified through the primary authority to the head office. I ...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c373GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the Minister. We have gone far enough with this, and I beg leave to withdraw the am...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c362GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister for his answer and I thank all other noble Lords who have taken part in the deb...
Lord Goodlad | 698 c362-3GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 118:
118: Clause 38, page 15, line 32, leave out from ““(2)”” to end of line 3...
Lord Selsdon | 698 c365GC (Link to this contribution)
I support these amendments wholeheartedly, but in particular subsection 7 of Amendment No. 119 becau...
Lord Bach | 698 c366-8GC (Link to this contribution)
The Committee is grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, for coming both in his own right and as c...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 698 c365GC (Link to this contribution)
I, too, support the amendment. The words, "““the grounds for imposing the monetary penalty””"
appea...
Lord Goodlad | 698 c369GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister for the thoroughness with which he has answered this debate, but I fear that he...
Lord Cope of Berkeley | 698 c369GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 120:
120: Clause 38, page 15, line 34, leave out from ““results”” to end of li...
Lord Bach | 698 c374-5GC (Link to this contribution)
This amendment is very similar in many ways to that which we have just discussed in the name of the ...
Lord Bach | 698 c360GC (Link to this contribution)
If they went for a fixed monetary penalty, which is what we are saying should happen, and if they fe...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 698 c360GC (Link to this contribution)
The Minister was talking about some very minor offences. I thought that we lived in a world in which...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 698 c361GC (Link to this contribution)
I am using the word prosecution to mean penalties. Perhaps I should start to call them administrativ...
Lord Bach | 698 c359GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendments Nos. 113 and 116 are similar in nature to the government amendments that I have spoken to...
Lord Razzall | 698 c359GC (Link to this contribution)
Noble Lords will see that my name is added to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley. He ha...
Viscount Eccles | 698 c359GC (Link to this contribution)
I wonder if this is an appropriate place to seek some clarification. Are we also talking about indiv...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c358-9GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 113:
113: Clause 37, page 15, line 25, leave out ““Where the relevant offence”...
Lord Cope of Berkeley | 698 c343GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 106:
106: Clause 34, page 14, line 21, leave out subsection (3)
The noble Lor...
Lord Berkeley | 698 c347-8GC (Link to this contribution)
I found the six regulators in Amendment No. 111 in the list of major economic regulators. Like the n...
Lord Razzall | 698 c347GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 110A:
110A: Schedule 5, page 47, line 18, at end insert—
““Gas and Electricity...
Lord Bach | 698 c352GC (Link to this contribution)
The noble Earl is quite right to return to this, because I did not cover it before. It depends wheth...
Lord Selsdon | 698 c352GC (Link to this contribution)
I do not want to nitpick, but if the Government do not yet know which ministries have which powers f...
Lord Berkeley | 698 c351GC (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I could pose a supplementary question. The Minister kindly mentioned the Civil Aviation Auth...
Lord Selsdon | 698 c353GC (Link to this contribution)
I am sorry; it should have been the Animal Health Act 2002. There are lots of animals around these d...
Lord Bach | 698 c354GC (Link to this contribution)
The reason why they are there, I am advised, is because there may be other regulators that are in Sc...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c354GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 112:
112: Clause 37, page 15, line 24, leave out paragraph (b)
The noble Lord...
Lord Bach | 698 c370GC (Link to this contribution)
That makes it tempting in itself, but I will resist. We believe that fixed monetary penalties would ...
Lord Desai | 698 c370GC (Link to this contribution)
The Bill is trying to simplify procedure and speed matters up. These amendments are trying to get ba...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c371GC (Link to this contribution)
Is the Minister asking purely about the issue of oral and written representations raised by Amendmen...
Lord Bach | 698 c371GC (Link to this contribution)
That is Amendment No. 128, but when the noble Lord moved Amendment No. 121, my concentration slipped...
Lord Bach | 698 c373GC (Link to this contribution)
That would be done through holding a database of primary authority partnerships, including a contact...
Lord Bach | 698 c373GC (Link to this contribution)
To which requirement does the noble Lord refer?
Lord Cope of Berkeley | 698 c373GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 125:
125: Clause 38, page 15, line 38, after ““notice””)”” insert ““within 28 ...
Viscount Eccles | 698 c362GC (Link to this contribution)
I entirely agree with the noble Lord, and certainly my boundary is set at a much lower figure than t...
Lord Bach | 698 c361GC (Link to this contribution)
Let me be candid with the noble Viscount, who has introduced a very important point. I do not know t...
Lord Razzall | 698 c363-4GC (Link to this contribution)
I support the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, which also stands in my name and t...
Viscount Colville of Culross | 698 c364-5GC (Link to this contribution)
I see that four amendments of mine to Clause 41 have been grouped with this. I do not know whether t...
Viscount Colville of Culross | 698 c369GC (Link to this contribution)
What can they do under Clause 41(4)(b), which is totally unspecified? Can the noble Lord give me som...
Viscount Colville of Culross | 698 c368GC (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord dealt with part of my point. I do not think that he is correct, because it is a negot...
Lord Bach | 698 c368-9GC (Link to this contribution)
If they make a mistake, as can happen with any notice of intent, the regulator party has a defence, ...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c377GC (Link to this contribution)
We of course support Amendment No. 134. We also support Amendments Nos. 144 and 154. Amendment No. 1...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c375GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister for his response. He has given me some food for thought, particularly as to the...
Lord Bach | 698 c376GC (Link to this contribution)
I am pleased that the noble and learned Lord was content with what I said about grounds. Let me just...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c359GC (Link to this contribution)
Could the Minister give us a couple of examples?
Lord Bach | 698 c361GC (Link to this contribution)
It certainly is not in our mind. Indeed, the whole argument about this is that there will not be pro...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 698 c360GC (Link to this contribution)
I do not want to go on with this too long, but I was really picking up what the Minister was saying ...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 698 c358GC (Link to this contribution)
From what the Minister says, unless the guidance to be given under the prescribed criteria is rather...
Lord Bach | 698 c358GC (Link to this contribution)
That is the variable monetary penalty. No one has suggested that a fixed monetary penalty is a discr...
Viscount Colville of Culross | 698 c357GC (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord cannot be right. Clause 40(3) states: "““For the purposes of this Part””—"
which inc...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c358GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the Minister for battling through this rather complicated area. In passing, the con...
Baroness Wilcox | 698 c335-6GC (Link to this contribution)
I share the concern of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lyell of Markyate, about this part of the Bi...
Lord Cope of Berkeley | 698 c344GC (Link to this contribution)
I thought that the Minister made half a case for not moving this provision to Clause 59, but not muc...
Baroness Wilcox | 698 c343GC (Link to this contribution)
I fully support my noble friend Lord Cope in these two amendments. They move the requirement to make...
Lord Bach | 698 c347GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 110:
110: Schedule 5, page 47, leave out line 8
The noble Lord said: This ame...
Baroness Wilcox | 698 c349-50GC (Link to this contribution)
Amendment No. 111A is in this group. It is a drafting amendment to ensure consistency within the Bil...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c345-6GC (Link to this contribution)
Before I start on Amendment No. 108, which is tabled in my name, I shall say that I support Amendmen...
Lord Bach | 698 c346-7GC (Link to this contribution)
I start by welcoming the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, to his place in this Committee. His colleague the...
Lord Selsdon | 698 c352GC (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord mentioned animals. There is a relationship between the Animal Health Act 2002 and the...
Lord Bach | 698 c352GC (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord raises a fair point, but we do not just have the consultation, hear what the national...
Lord Razzall | 698 c352GC (Link to this contribution)
We have listened to what the Minister said, which seems to raise a point of principle, not just of d...
Lord Selsdon | 698 c351GC (Link to this contribution)
When one looks at the comparisons of Acts and Bills, and one takes the Office of Gas and Electricity...
Lord Razzall | 698 c354GC (Link to this contribution)
That was the point that I was going to make. We do not really want the Minister’s officials to empty...
Lord Berkeley | 698 c354GC (Link to this contribution)
Before my noble friend sits down, it would be very helpful in this long letter that he is going to s...
Lord Bach | 698 c355-6GC (Link to this contribution)
On Amendment No. 112, the Bill allows some flexibility in the calculation of fixed monetary penaltie...
Lord Bach | 698 c356-7GC (Link to this contribution)
I hope that I am not, but I take the noble and learned Lord’s point. For example, a minor breach of ...
Viscount Colville of Culross | 698 c357GC (Link to this contribution)
Not on that, but did I hear the noble Lord, Lord Bach, right, when he said that if you go down the m...
Lord Cope of Berkeley | 698 c370-1GC (Link to this contribution)
When the Minister was speaking, I got nervous when he talked about quick sanctions that could be sla...
Lord Bach | 698 c371GC (Link to this contribution)
As the noble Lord fairly said when moving this amendment, we have been here before, and I am going t...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c372GC (Link to this contribution)
I am very grateful to the Minister. What he suggests sounds like a very sensible compromise. In what...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c373GC (Link to this contribution)
I am sorry to labour the point. The Minister has explained the mechanics. What he has not explained ...
Lord Bach | 698 c373GC (Link to this contribution)
As I understand it, on this occasion it would be part of the system that would be administratively s...
Lord Bach | 698 c373-4GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank the noble Lord for his efforts in attempting to ensure the right balance is struck between p...
Lord Bach | 698 c372GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank the noble Lord for raising the issue. I understand the concern he raises that multi-site bus...
Lord Desai | 698 c362GC (Link to this contribution)
Surely the boundary would be a different amount of money for different people and different offences...
Lord Bach | 698 c362GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendments Nos. 114 and 115:
114: Clause 37, page 15, line 26, leave out ““only”” and insert...
Viscount Eccles | 698 c361-2GC (Link to this contribution)
Let me reinforce my earlier point. Among the public there is a willingness to accept that it may be ...
Lord Bach | 698 c369GC (Link to this contribution)
I understand that the purpose of subsection (4)(b) is to allow new defences to be created against th...
Lord Colwyn | 698 c369GC (Link to this contribution)
I point out to the Committee that if this amendment is agreed to, I shall not call Amendments Nos. 1...
Lord Razzall | 698 c376-7GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 134:
134: Clause 39, page 16, line 32, leave out from second ““a”” to end of l...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 698 c376GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister for that answer. There is still some residual worry. I find it difficult to spo...
Lord Bach | 698 c377-8GC (Link to this contribution)
Turning first to Amendments Nos. 134, 144 and 151, we understand the concerns that noble Lords have ...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 698 c375-6GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 132:
132: Clause 38, page 16, line 5, at end insert ““and all relevant facts a...
Lord Cope of Berkeley | 698 c374GC (Link to this contribution)
That is extremely helpful of the Minister in both cases. I am not sure I quite understand the reason...
Lord De Mauley | 698 c374GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 126:
126: Clause 38, page 15, line 38, after ““to”” insert ““request an indepe...
Lord Razzall | 698 c378GC (Link to this contribution)
The amendment to Clause 39 is of a slightly different nature to the other two amendments that the no...
Lord Bach | 698 c360GC (Link to this contribution)
There are many either-way offences on the statute book. It might be that one of those offences may n...
Viscount Eccles | 698 c361GC (Link to this contribution)
Can I pursue the redundant fridge for a moment? Am I right to understand that the clause and the Bil...
Lord Bach | 698 c361GC (Link to this contribution)
I understand. It will be very important that local authorities, the regulators in this field, do not...
Lord Bach | 698 c357GC (Link to this contribution)
Clause 51 begins, ““Provision under section 40””, which is where discretionary requirements appear i...
Lord Bach | 698 c358GC (Link to this contribution)
We have been over why we think that it is better for good regulation to follow the Macrory principle...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 698 c327-32GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 104:
104: Clause 34, page 14, line 16, leave out paragraph (b)
The noble and ...
Baroness Fookes | 698 c327GC (Link to this contribution)
I make the usual reminder that if there is a Division in the Chamber, the Committee will adjourn imm...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 698 c332-5GC (Link to this contribution)
I can see that in some cases it may be quite easy to say that you are sure that there is guilt. If t...
Lord Bach | 698 c344GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank the noble Lord for moving his amendment. We understand that bringing symmetry from Parts 1, ...
Baroness Fookes | 698 c343GC (Link to this contribution)
I should point out that if the amendment were to be carried, I could not call Amendment No. 107 by r...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 698 c342-3GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister for a very full and careful answer and for the promise of further information. ...
Lord Bach | 698 c338-42GC (Link to this contribution)
This has been a very welcome debate, and the Committee will be grateful to the noble and learned Lor...
Lord Cope of Berkeley | 698 c337-8GC (Link to this contribution)
I am not capable of adding to the great constitutional arguments advanced by my noble and learned fr...
Lord Borrie | 698 c336-7GC (Link to this contribution)
We have listened to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lyell, with tremendous interest. It was a brill...
Lord Desai | 698 c337GC (Link to this contribution)
The situation is not as the noble Baroness has described. It is not that I do not like transparency,...
Lord Cope of Berkeley | 698 c349GC (Link to this contribution)
Like the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, I was interested in the match, or lack of it, between Schedule 5...
Lord Selsdon | 698 c348-9GC (Link to this contribution)
I apologise to the Committee for having 11 pages of amendments. I was so pleased with the noble Lord...
Lord Razzall | 698 c344-5GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 107:
107: Clause 34, page 14, line 21, after ““instrument”” insert ““and shall...
Lord Bach | 698 c352GC (Link to this contribution)
I have to say that my knowledge does not compare to that of the noble Lord. I will of course have th...
Lord Bach | 698 c351GC (Link to this contribution)
I do not think that we are in danger of falling between two stools. In answer to both noble Lords, w...
Lord Bach | 698 c353GC (Link to this contribution)
It was already going to be a long letter—it is now going to have an extra paragraph. I know that the...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 698 c353GC (Link to this contribution)
Before the noble Lord does that, perhaps I may ask a question. The Housing Corporation is one of the...
Lord Bach | 698 c354GC (Link to this contribution)
I am forced into the position—although I hope that I do not do so reluctantly—of saying that we will...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 698 c353GC (Link to this contribution)
In that case, I do not quite understand why the water and gas Acts are in Schedules 6 and 7, which b...
Lord Lyell of Markyate | 698 c355GC (Link to this contribution)
I shall speak to my Amendment No. 117 in this group. Currently, the Bill says, "““the amount of the ...
Lord Bach | 698 c357GC (Link to this contribution)
It will not be £20 in every case. If it is not £20 in every case, the answer to the noble Lord’s que...
Lord Bach | 698 c357GC (Link to this contribution)
Let me find Clause 51. As I understand it, Clause 51 does not apply to the fixed monetary penalty; i...
Viscount Colville of Culross | 698 c357GC (Link to this contribution)
I simply do not understand it. We are dealing with the part of the Bill that starts with Clause 40 o...
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