Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Bill [HL]
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
687 c81-138GC
Session
2006-07
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Bill (HL). Explanatory Notes HL Bill 5-EN also published.
Thursday, 16 November 2006
Bills
House of Lords
Thursday, 16 November 2006
Bills
House of Lords
Show all related items (7)
Deposited Paper DEP 07/148
Thursday, 11 January 2007
Deposited papers
House of Lords
House of Commons
Thursday, 11 January 2007
Deposited papers
House of Lords
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 687 c128GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 130:
130: Clause 128, page 96, line 29, leave out ““section”” and insert ““Par...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c127GC (Link to this contribution)
One of the reasons why a single day’s sitting was to be run over two days was because of time constr...
Show all contributions (136)
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c124-5GC (Link to this contribution)
Absolutely not. It is for the court that is trying to find out these very specific pieces of informa...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 687 c121GC (Link to this contribution)
So the way in which it operates is that even if you are paying an instalment order under a judgment,...
Lord Lucas | 687 c115GC (Link to this contribution)
There are a lot of technical bits and pieces to do with who comes under which bit of this Bill, in w...
Lord Lucas | 687 c111-2GC (Link to this contribution)
As is well known from my speech at Second Reading, I am very much in favour of a proper system of li...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c107GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 92:
92: Schedule 12, page 204, line 19, leave out sub-paragraph (2) and insert...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c119GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Lord. I was having a little difficulty working out where the measure fitt...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 687 c87-8GC (Link to this contribution)
I am not content that Clause 47 should stand part. Yet again I declare an interest as a former judge...
Lord Lucas | 687 c95-7GC (Link to this contribution)
If the amendments had been grouped better, I might find it easier. I seem to be speaking to Amendmen...
Lord Lucas | 687 c103-4GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 74:
74: Schedule 12, page 201, line 41, at end insert ““by serving a notice on...
Lord Lucas | 687 c94GC (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps it will help if I stand back, although these microphones are made to be spoken into when sit...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c137-8GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Lord for being very succinct and clear about the issues on which he seeks...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c138GC (Link to this contribution)
Apparently, it is the existing position in the Supreme Court Act.
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 687 c82GC (Link to this contribution)
May I interrupt? I used to give practice direction, when I was President of the Family Division. The...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c82-3GC (Link to this contribution)
The noble Baroness has displayed her confidence in the draft on the basis of her experience. The Com...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 687 c127GC (Link to this contribution)
This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn sine die. We do not normally speak to s...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c127GC (Link to this contribution)
We can adjourn during pleasure. I interrupt my noble friend only because I know that three or four M...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c126GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 126:
126: Schedule 17, page 267, line 36, at end insert—
““(10) Regulations un...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c125GC (Link to this contribution)
I do not know what limitations I could put in Clause 89, other than specifying in the Bill, "““the f...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 687 c135GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the Minister for her exposition. The exercise of due diligence seems to be a trade-...
Lord Renfrew of Kaimsthorn | 687 c128-9GC (Link to this contribution)
I support this chapter in general but, like the noble Lord who has just spoken, I am a little anxiou...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c125GC (Link to this contribution)
The point of subsection (3)(e), as I have said, is to enable us to recognise that the machinery of G...
Lord Lucas | 687 c125GC (Link to this contribution)
Turning to Clause 90, I cannot see restrictions on the type of information that can be requested. Cr...
Lord Lucas | 687 c124GC (Link to this contribution)
Before the noble Lord withdraws his amendment, I should like to widen the question. If the informati...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c122GC (Link to this contribution)
We are trying to prevent a situation arising where once the asset is sold, it is too late. You canno...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 687 c121GC (Link to this contribution)
I do not understand it—that is the problem. The noble Baroness says that it is not a security that i...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 687 c120-1GC (Link to this contribution)
I have had to make charging orders. A charging order nisi comes automatically, but the charging orde...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 687 c121GC (Link to this contribution)
I entirely agree. Therefore, why do the Government want the provision in the Bill?
Lord Lucas | 687 c108-9GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 97:
97: Schedule 13, page 224, line 34, at end insert—
““( ) for the words ““n...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 687 c115-6GC (Link to this contribution)
Certification by the court where the sanction is contempt of court proceedings is a very unsatisfact...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c112-3GC (Link to this contribution)
This takes us into the area of certification and regulation, and I am grateful to have the opportuni...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 687 c109-11GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 98:
98: Clause 55, page 40, line 17, at end insert—
““( ) Any individual actin...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c105-6GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Lord. The question of bailiffs’ forced entry without a warrant applies to...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c119GC (Link to this contribution)
When dealing with attachment of earnings orders there is an issue about what earnings the order is a...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 687 c120GC (Link to this contribution)
Would the noble Lord be kind enough to describe the conflict? I cannot see any at all, but if he wou...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c119GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 119B:
119B: Clause 85, page 53, line 5, at end insert—
““(9) Where the judgmen...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 687 c120GC (Link to this contribution)
I cannot see what advantage would accrue to the creditor under those circumstances.
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 687 c120GC (Link to this contribution)
That is my point. I agree entirely with the noble Lord. We await an explanation from the noble Baron...
Lord Lucas | 687 c116GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 111:
111: Clause 57, page 41, line 18, at end insert—
““( ) rules of peaceful ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c116GC (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord is entirely right in his assumption that they have been got rid of. I will follow up ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c118GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendments Nos. 118 and 119:
118: Clause 82, page 49, line 28, at end insert—
““(3A) A statu...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c89-90GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 67:
67: Schedule 10, page 182, line 17, leave out ““, (12) and (13)”” and inse...
Lord Lucas | 687 c94GC (Link to this contribution)
I sympathise with the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley. This is a disreputable grouping. It cont...
Lord Beaumont of Whitley | 687 c93-4GC (Link to this contribution)
There are a number of amendments in this group in my name. I have put down amendments at the urging ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c84GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Kingsland and Lord Newton, for raising this issue. We have ba...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 687 c83GC (Link to this contribution)
I should make it clear that what I am about to say is not said as chairman of the Council on Tribuna...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c87GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 64:
64: Clause 46, page 33, line 42, at end insert—
““(aa) an order under para...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 687 c87GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister. I could hardly have asked for more, so I shall simply sit down and shut up.
S...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 687 c102-3GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her lengthy explanation. I assure the noble Lord, Lord Lucas...
Lord Lucas | 687 c104GC (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move.
Lord Tordoff | 687 c104GC (Link to this contribution)
It is my fault, having only just arrived.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c104GC (Link to this contribution)
My legal advice originally was that the way in which the Bill was drafted meant that it covered othe...
Lord Lucas | 687 c95GC (Link to this contribution)
Yes, that was done yesterday, but the rest of the group is still there. We had a long speech from th...
Lord Lucas | 687 c95GC (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps we should have a system whereby we speak sitting down.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c138GC (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord is absolutely right; that is not the case. I shall write to the noble Lord setting th...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c138GC (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful for that clarification. I take it that when the noble Baroness refers to the exis...
Lord Renfrew of Kaimsthorn | 687 c135GC (Link to this contribution)
I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 128 agreed to.
[Ame...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c83GC (Link to this contribution)
Of course I am pleased that the noble Lord has raised the point. Lord Justice Carnwath, as the noble...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 687 c127GC (Link to this contribution)
I am guided by my noble friend, who knows a great deal more about the proceedings of the Committee t...
Lord Lucas | 687 c125GC (Link to this contribution)
I will write to the Minister.
Lord Lucas | 687 c125GC (Link to this contribution)
In that case, does the Minister have draft regulations that we might see before Report?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c125GC (Link to this contribution)
I have a policy statement, which has thus far been acceptable, and which details all the things we w...
Lord Howarth of Newport | 687 c129-33GC (Link to this contribution)
We should be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Renfrew, and the noble Lords, Lord Thomas and Lord Mac...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c133-4GC (Link to this contribution)
This has been an interesting debate. It has ranged wider than the subject of the amendments. I inten...
Lord Renfrew of Kaimsthorn | 687 c135GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 131:
131: Clause 128, page 96, line 29, at end insert ““and it shall be a cond...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 687 c128GC (Link to this contribution)
Clause 128(3) states: "““‘Museum or gallery’ means an institution in the United Kingdom approved for...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c127-8GC (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord is, as ever, generous. If we adjourn during pleasure, I will undertake, as the Attorn...
Lord Lucas | 687 c125GC (Link to this contribution)
What places the restrictions on subsection (3)(e) that mean it cannot be expanded?
Lord Lucas | 687 c124GC (Link to this contribution)
Yes, but would it allow me, for instance, to apply to the court to requisition information from Defr...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c123GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 123:
123: Clause 88, page 54, line 36, leave out paragraph (a)
The noble Lord...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c123-4GC (Link to this contribution)
I hope that I can be helpful. I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, who I am preventing from sp...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c124GC (Link to this contribution)
The noble Baroness thought that I was looking puzzled, but I was just concentrating very hard on wha...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c122-3GC (Link to this contribution)
Your Lordships might have noticed the sense of wonder on my face when I moved the amendment. That is...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 687 c122GC (Link to this contribution)
This is the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, so he will have to decide what to do with i...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c113-5GC (Link to this contribution)
I do not—but that does not mean there have not been any. I shall find out and let the noble Lord kno...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 687 c113GC (Link to this contribution)
Does the Minister know of any instance where contempt of court proceedings have been brought?
Lord Lucas | 687 c104-5GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 84:
84: Schedule 12, page 202, line 34, at end insert—
““( ) Entry without a w...
Lord Lucas | 687 c104GC (Link to this contribution)
I apologise to our new Deputy Chairman. I am sitting down because the microphone does not pick up my...
Lord Lucas | 687 c107-8GC (Link to this contribution)
With regard to the Minister’s first remark, when my ancestors had a castle in Wales they ran their o...
Lord Lucas | 687 c106GC (Link to this contribution)
I am very grateful for that answer. I will rely on the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, to put his keen lega...
Lord Lucas | 687 c107GC (Link to this contribution)
That includes that of my ancestors, I am glad to say. That reinforces the point behind one of the ot...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c119GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Lord. I have always understood that those issues are dealt with within th...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 687 c120GC (Link to this contribution)
The advantage is fairly clear-cut. The instalment order which may be agreed between the parties is b...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c116GC (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord is entirely right: they have been abolished. I will follow up with a letter and expla...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c116-7GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 112:
112: Clause 68, page 44, line 12, leave out ““and””
The noble Lord said:...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c118-9GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 119A:
119A: After Clause 84, insert the following new Clause—
““Assessing hous...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c91GC (Link to this contribution)
The powers relate to re-entry, not entry. That may make no difference to what the noble Lord is sayi...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 687 c90-1GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 68:
68: Schedule 12, page 199, line 2, at end insert ““but shall include—
(a) ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c89GC (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, is right; there is very little between what noble Lords have said. I...
Lord Lucas | 687 c88-9GC (Link to this contribution)
I note, since I spent a happy couple of hours yesterday in Sub-Committee E discussing the Court of F...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c84GC (Link to this contribution)
In those circumstances I am happy to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Qu...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c86-7GC (Link to this contribution)
I am very grateful for those comments, including the bouncers. I am grateful to the noble Lord for a...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 687 c84-6GC (Link to this contribution)
I know it is unusual but I was told that, if I gave notice to the Deputy Chairman, the Clerk and the...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 687 c88GC (Link to this contribution)
I support the Government on this matter. I do not believe there should be a ceiling for legal execut...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c104GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to have the chance to talk about this. When I looked at the question originally when t...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c94GC (Link to this contribution)
Could the noble Lord say again what is disreputable?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c95GC (Link to this contribution)
Nobody has insisted on anything. We have tried to put things together in the right order. The noble ...
Lord Lucas | 687 c95GC (Link to this contribution)
I will try that. Is that better? Yes? Excellent.
We start with the question of what goods should be...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c95GC (Link to this contribution)
If the noble Lord would like to do that, there is no reason why he should not. I have a problem with...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c138GC (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful. We can probably clear this matter up on Report. In the circumstances I shall not...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c135GC (Link to this contribution)
Yes, the Serpentine Gallery and the Royal Academy of Arts are included in the definition I was seeki...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c135-7GC (Link to this contribution)
In speaking to Clause 132 stand part, I should also like to draw your Lordships’ attention to Clause...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c81GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 61:
61: Clause 23, page 19, line 14, leave out subsection (6)
The noble Lord ...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c83GC (Link to this contribution)
In those circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Cla...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c126-7GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendments Nos. 127 to 129:
127: Clause 122, page 93, line 26, at end insert—
““( ) any regu...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c125-6GC (Link to this contribution)
I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 88 agreed to.
Claus...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c128GC (Link to this contribution)
I must say that I am ashamed.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c124GC (Link to this contribution)
I thought we had drawn Clause 89 quite tightly, because it lists the specific information. It is not...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c121-2GC (Link to this contribution)
When we were looking at whether we should do that, we were mindful of the various circumstances in w...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c121GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to have the opportunity to resolve this matter. The noble Baroness is absolutely right...
Lord Lucas | 687 c109GC (Link to this contribution)
I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Schedule 13 agreed to.
Cla...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c109GC (Link to this contribution)
I begin by saying that the wording applies only to county court bailiffs; that is, those employed in...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c108GC (Link to this contribution)
I would rather set that out for the noble Lord in writing. As we have prepared for this legislation,...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c108GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 95:
95: Schedule 12, page 205, line 28, leave out sub-paragraph (5) and insert...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 687 c106GC (Link to this contribution)
I have just realised why there are so many ruined castles.
Lord Kingsland | 687 c119GC (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful. In those circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by le...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 687 c120GC (Link to this contribution)
Is that not surrendering practicality to theory? I cannot see that any advantage would accrue to the...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 687 c120GC (Link to this contribution)
I wonder if I may assist because I have a briefing on this which the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, may...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c117-8GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Lord for raising this issue. He will be aware that the provision is based...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c118GC (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for her reply. I indicated that these were probing amendmen...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 687 c91-2GC (Link to this contribution)
That was a very nice point. It almost balanced on a pinhead, if I may say so. The basic principle th...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c88GC (Link to this contribution)
There is no incompatibility between what the noble Baroness said and what the noble Lord, Lord Thoma...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c92-3GC (Link to this contribution)
My name is attached to Amendments Nos. 70 and 71. There is no difference in principle between me and...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c83GC (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 62:
62: Schedule 7, page 140, line 37, leave out ““or without cause”” and inse...
Viscount Allenby of Megiddo | 687 c95GC (Link to this contribution)
It might be easier to follow the noble Lord if he tells us which amendment he is addressing.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley | 687 c103GC (Link to this contribution)
had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 69:
69: Schedule 12, page 199, line 34, at...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c97-102GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank noble Lords. I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. We tried, when setting up the groupi...
Lord Lucas | 687 c94GC (Link to this contribution)
Am I supposed to press a switch?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c94GC (Link to this contribution)
I cannot hear the noble Lord—I do not quite know why. I heard him say ““disreputable””, but I do not...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c95GC (Link to this contribution)
It is partly to do with the noise level around me. I, too, have not been in this Room before and I h...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c138GC (Link to this contribution)
As I recall, that Act was passed in 1981. Is it true that since 1981 it has been possible for the Hi...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 687 c81-2GC (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Lord. I made sure that I had seen some examples of practice directions; a...
Lord Kingsland | 687 c82GC (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful for the noble Baroness’s reassuring words. However, in the light of what she said...
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