Government of Wales Bill

Debate on bills on Monday, 27 February 2006, in the House of Commons.

Government of Wales Bill. Programme motion (No 2) on proceedings on Report and in Third Reading. Agreed to on division (279 to 148). Report stage debate first day.

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

443 c21-94

Session

2005-06

Department

Wales Office

Legislative stage

Report stage

Procedure

Programme motions

Chamber / Committee

House of Commons chamber

Government of Wales Bill. As amended in Committee
Monday, 30 January 2006
Bills
House of Commons

Proceeding contributions

Cheryl Gillan | 443 c39 (Link to this contribution) A moment ago, the right hon. Gentleman said that we should listen to the elected Members for Wales. ...

Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 443 c39 (Link to this contribution) I listen to elected Members of the Assembly all the time. The vote that the hon. Lady referred to wa...

Show all contributions (165)

Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 443 c39 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman had better have a word with the shadow Secretary of State for Wales. She seems to...

Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 443 c40 (Link to this contribution) The point is being made that this policy simply appeared out of the blue and was dreamed up at the l...

Lembit Opik | 443 c40 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is trying to send to the other place the message that, because this was a m...

Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 443 c40 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman can pick and choose from a list of policies if he wants to, but today we are disc...

Elfyn Llwyd | 443 c39-40 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure what the position of the right hon. Gentleman was, but his party clearly did not consi...

Lembit Opik | 443 c41 (Link to this contribution) The second part of those remarks is simply vexatious mischief. If the change goes through, we will s...

Lembit Opik | 443 c40-1 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy) said that the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (M...

Elfyn Llwyd | 443 c47 (Link to this contribution) I shall comment on what the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) said about what Leanne Wood had or h...

Ian Lucas | 443 c47 (Link to this contribution) The essence of my point is that Assembly Members should represent the people in their constituency a...

Wayne David | 443 c49 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there are members of Plaid Cymru in the Bevan Foundation?

Elfyn Llwyd | 443 c48-9 (Link to this contribution) As I said, the right hon. Gentleman and myself are as one on the fact there has been some confusion ...

Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 443 c48 (Link to this contribution) The issue that I have addressed both today and some weeks ago is that the system with which we now e...

Elfyn Llwyd | 443 c47-8 (Link to this contribution) A certain gentleman from Wales was recently on ““Question Time””. He was asked about matters which h...

Elfyn Llwyd | 443 c49-50 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. We are fixed in our view that the premise is unfair and that the case has simply not bee...

Elfyn Llwyd | 443 c49 (Link to this contribution) Yes, and one member of Plaid Cymru asked for the annual accounts and was refused them. [Hon. Members...

Cheryl Gillan | 443 c49 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that some of the narrative in the report is interesting? At one stage,...

Mark Tami | 443 c45 (Link to this contribution) To reinforce my hon. Friend’s point, the Assembly Member, Carl Sargeant, who represents the same are...

Elfyn Llwyd | 443 c45 (Link to this contribution) I have heard the Secretary of State make the same point that the hon. Gentleman is making: Labour co...

Ian Lucas | 443 c45 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. In north Wales, there are a number of individuals in Labour seats—some of w...

Lembit Opik | 443 c45 (Link to this contribution) That involves a slight contradiction: if Labour does even better, it is even less likely to win seat...

Ian Lucas | 443 c45 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman should wait for the outcome of the election, when he will discover that Labour wi...

Ian Lucas | 443 c46 (Link to this contribution) But it will gain more constituency seats. My next point concerns the placement of constituency offi...

Cheryl Gillan | 443 c46 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the answer is that regional Members should have an office in ever...

Ian Lucas | 443 c46 (Link to this contribution) I am surprised that such an experienced Member should make such a protracted and ineffective interve...

Mark Tami | 443 c46-7 (Link to this contribution) There are Assembly offices in north Wales. Does my hon. Friend think that it would be a good idea th...

Elfyn Llwyd | 443 c44 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy) said that, when he spoke to people in the pubs about ...

Lembit Opik | 443 c43-4 (Link to this contribution) I value the person who gave that advice, so I will take it and I will stop there. I simply say in ge...

Speaker | 443 c43 (Link to this contribution) Order. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will take the advice that he has just given to himself?

Lembit Opik | 443 c44 (Link to this contribution) To raise the suspense, I will come to that in just a minute. To finish off, I ask the Minister to r...

Ian Lucas | 443 c45 (Link to this contribution) Opposition Members have repeatedly alleged that the proposal to disbar candidates from standing for ...

Lembit Opik | 443 c44 (Link to this contribution) And 24-hour drinking will not help the case of the right hon. Member for Torfaen. While sort of than...

Cheryl Gillan | 443 c44 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman intend to join me, my party and Plaid Cymru Members in the Lobby if I ask fo...

Lembit Opik | 443 c42 (Link to this contribution) The answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question lies in the comments by the right hon. Member for Torfae...

Albert Owen | 443 c41 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman used the term ““gerrymandering””, and the shadow Secretary of State for Wales tal...

Lembit Opik | 443 c42 (Link to this contribution) In his heart of hearts, the right hon. Gentleman surely cannot pretend that this change has anything...

Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 443 c42 (Link to this contribution) My point was that the system distorts the purpose of top-up Members. When the House debated the Gove...

Chris Bryant | 443 c43 (Link to this contribution) Autocracy?

Lembit Opik | 443 c43 (Link to this contribution) Yes, autocracy—[Interruption.] I will not be drawn on that. The hon. Gentleman should remember that ...

Lembit Opik | 443 c42 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to the hon. Gentleman in a minute but I want to respond to the more interesting of t...

Chris Bryant | 443 c42-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is getting into what the House of Lords should do to legislation from this place....

Lembit Opik | 443 c43 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is obviously beginning to panic about how the upper House may interpret this deba...

David TC Davies | 443 c70-1 (Link to this contribution) With respect, I think people would say that any Government organisation that sets a bar of two third...

Nick Ainger | 443 c71 (Link to this contribution) Obviously, this is a very complex matter, and I hope that hon. Members will bear with me while I go ...

Lembit Opik | 443 c71 (Link to this contribution) The Government are increasingly schizophrenic. They have introduced some incredibly complicated arra...

Nick Ainger | 443 c71-2 (Link to this contribution) As I move on through my brief, perhaps I can explain to the hon. Gentleman the fact that we are seek...

Elfyn Llwyd | 443 c72 (Link to this contribution) The Minister stops short. He says that the system has been used in Scotland to appoint Committee Cha...

Lembit Opik | 443 c74 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is giving us the firm impression that he is the full master of the d’Hondt process. To ...

Lembit Opik | 443 c70 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has not been listening, because the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy) in...

David TC Davies | 443 c70 (Link to this contribution) With the exception of the right hon. Member for Torfaen’s local, not many people seem to be calling ...

Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 443 c70 (Link to this contribution) Of course people would not say that. I entirely agree that d’Hondt is not on the lips of every one o...

Speaker | 443 c64 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment No. 14, in page 18, line 11, le...

Lembit Opik | 443 c64-5 (Link to this contribution) This string of amendments is about political balance and how the Assembly Commission will be set up....

Elfyn Llwyd | 443 c63 (Link to this contribution) I am thoroughly unpersuaded but this is perhaps a debate for another day, so I beg to ask leave to w...

Lembit Opik | 443 c63 (Link to this contribution) : I beg to move amendment No. 30, in page 17, line 17, at end insert 'not belonging to the same po...

Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 443 c69-70 (Link to this contribution) I want briefly to make two points. First, many people regard the d’Hondt system as extremely fair. W...

David TC Davies | 443 c70 (Link to this contribution) I have been asked to keep my remarks short, so I shall make only one point. We spent the first two ...

David Mundell | 443 c65-6 (Link to this contribution) I wish to state our broad support for amendment No. 30, which is in the name of the hon. Member for ...

Elfyn Llwyd | 443 c66-9 (Link to this contribution) The one-time Member for Llanelli, the right hon. Denzil Davies, was never a fan of things Belgian. I...

David TC Davies | 443 c62 (Link to this contribution) I think that it makes the point that there must surely be better ways of swearing in elected Members...

Kevin Brennan | 443 c62-3 (Link to this contribution) Amendments Nos. 20 and 21 are an attempt to alter clause 23. They would have the effect of allowing ...

Speaker | 443 c62 (Link to this contribution) Order. We must now return to the amendment under discussion.

Elfyn Llwyd | 443 c60 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friends and I have tabled amendments Nos. 20 and 21, which are self-explanatory and provide ...

Lembit Opik | 443 c61 (Link to this contribution) Obviously, it would be a free vote if this matter were divided on in the House, but I understand tha...

David TC Davies | 443 c61-2 (Link to this contribution) I disagree with amendment No. 20 because I see it as another attempt to undermine the principle that...

Nick Ainger | 443 c52 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. As my hon. Friend says from a sedentary position, they are in a minority. Does the hon. ...

Cheryl Gillan | 443 c52-3 (Link to this contribution) I have listened to the Under-Secretary and I disagree with him. He has not made his case and I shoul...

Elfyn Llwyd | 443 c60 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 20, in page 14, line 15, after ‘affirmation)’, insert 'or in the form o...

Speaker | 443 c60 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: No. 21, in page 14, line 16, at end insert...

Cheryl Gillan | 443 c51-2 (Link to this contribution) That is because I feel strongly on the subject. I just wanted to quote some of the good people of Ca...

Nick Ainger | 443 c51 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady is aware that I have to wind up by 5.36 pm. She had better be extremely brief, given t...

Nick Ainger | 443 c51 (Link to this contribution) No, because I have only six more minutes. In New Zealand, public opinion research conducted by the ...

Nick Ainger | 443 c51 (Link to this contribution) We have heard Opposition Members claim that this measure is partisan, gerrymandering, rigged, fixed ...

David TC Davies | 443 c51 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister give way?

Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 443 c50 (Link to this contribution) I invite the hon. Gentleman to come to ““The Mount”” in Cwmbran on Friday night, where we can discus...

Elfyn Llwyd | 443 c50 (Link to this contribution) That is a kind offer, and I must look at my diary—I may well be going on a fact-finding tour on Frid...

Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 443 c50 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has prayed in aid various people in Wales, including Glyn Mathias and Lord Richar...

Elfyn Llwyd | 443 c50 (Link to this contribution) It is a question of research and evidence. Lord Richard expressed his personal opinion before the We...

Lembit Opik | 443 c75-6 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for his support. So enraged are the true experts on d’Hondt that they are flo...

Lembit Opik | 443 c75 (Link to this contribution) I will not withdraw my amendment and I will tell you why, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Nick Ainger | 443 c74-5 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. The d’Hondt system does not work for Committees with small numbers. In that case, there ...

Hywel Williams | 443 c84 (Link to this contribution) The amendments and new clause were discussed in Committee, but we believe that further points need t...

Speaker | 443 c83 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment No. 18, in clause 61 , page 36,...

Hywel Williams | 443 c83 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 17, in page 21, line 40, leave out from ‘effect,’ to ‘to’ in line 41 and...

Lembit Opik | 443 c76-7 (Link to this contribution) It is almost as weak as being offered an assurance from someone who does not have the jurisdiction t...

Elfyn Llwyd | 443 c76 (Link to this contribution) Is it not the simple fact that, given that the Labour Administration in Cardiff who, for their own r...

Lembit Opik | 443 c23-4 (Link to this contribution) I am slightly surprised by the Conservative position on the programme motion. [Interruption.] The ho...

Cheryl Gillan | 443 c28 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 1, in page 4, line 36, leave out subsections (5) and (6) and insert— '(...

Speaker | 443 c28-9 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment No. 8, in page 4, line 42, at en...

Cheryl Gillan | 443 c29 (Link to this contribution) The first group of amendments in the section to be dealt with before the guillotine deals with the p...

Cheryl Gillan | 443 c29 (Link to this contribution) The Electoral Reform Society, the Electoral Commission and the Bevan Foundation report, which I shal...

Chris Bryant | 443 c30 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether that is right. In multi-member local government constituencies, people have th...

Cheryl Gillan | 443 c30 (Link to this contribution) I refer the hon. Gentleman to page 8 of the Bevan Foundation report, which Labour Members have praye...

Chris Bryant | 443 c30 (Link to this contribution) indicated dissent.

Cheryl Gillan | 443 c30 (Link to this contribution) The Welsh people have not called for the Government’s proposed change to the electoral system. Furth...

Cheryl Gillan | 443 c22-3 (Link to this contribution) I will not take up the House’s time at great length for the simple reason that the way in which the ...

Nick Ainger | 443 c21-2 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move,"That the Order of 9th January 2006 (Government of Wales Bill (Programme)) be varied a...

Cheryl Gillan | 443 c34-5 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman and I are of one accord on this. What seems important is whether the Bill suits t...

Hywel Williams | 443 c33-4 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Lady find it curious that Labour Members place such weight on this report, given the s...

Cheryl Gillan | 443 c33 (Link to this contribution) I am unwilling to concede that, because the report found that only ““slightly”” more of the total nu...

Wayne David | 443 c33 (Link to this contribution) I am very pleased that the hon. Lady has taken the trouble to read the Bevan Foundation’s report. As...

Cheryl Gillan | 443 c33 (Link to this contribution) That could be a majority of just one out of the 47 respondents. The hon. Gentleman should read some ...

Wayne David | 443 c33 (Link to this contribution) A majority.

Speaker | 443 c33 (Link to this contribution) Order. When I am on my feet, the hon. Lady must sit down. She must not use the second person because...

Sian C James | 443 c33 (Link to this contribution) Have you any research that you can impart on how—

Cheryl Gillan | 443 c33 (Link to this contribution) I hope that Assembly Members have noted that the hon. Lady likened them to zombies. [Interruption.] ...

Sian C James | 443 c33 (Link to this contribution) I apologise, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Does the hon. Lady have any evidence that the people of Wales are h...

Cheryl Gillan | 443 c32-3 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman reads his contribution at column 112 of Hansard on 30 January, he will realise...

Wayne David | 443 c32 (Link to this contribution) This is extremely tedious. If the hon. Lady did not hear my comments during our previous proceedings...

Cheryl Gillan | 443 c32 (Link to this contribution) I give way to the hon. Gentleman to let him tell us why he did not say that he had sponsored it.

Cheryl Gillan | 443 c31-2 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman should settle down—it gets better. Point 6 of the introduction to the report sta...

Chris Bryant | 443 c31 (Link to this contribution) No, I am just shouting.

Jim Devine | 443 c31 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Lady aware of the situation of the leader of the Scottish National party, who, if he sto...

Cheryl Gillan | 443 c30-1 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to hon. Members because my voice is gradually fading away and may be reduced to a faint ...

Albert Owen | 443 c30 (Link to this contribution) When probing amendments suggesting that there is confusion about the electoral system were moved in ...

Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 443 c38-9 (Link to this contribution) I do not live in fantasy land. I live in Wales, which the hon. Lady does not. I do not know whether,...

Cheryl Gillan | 443 c38 (Link to this contribution) As I spent the first 11 years of my life in Wales, the right hon. Gentleman might say that I have sp...

Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 443 c38 (Link to this contribution) I did not intend to speak in this debate until I listened to the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersha...

Cheryl Gillan | 443 c36-8 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the Minister does not want to be reminded of the National Offender Management Service...

David TC Davies | 443 c39 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for reminding us that the Conservative party opposes propo...

Hywel Williams | 443 c35 (Link to this contribution) Is it not the case that the Labour party is happy for such Members to set up camps as long as they a...

Elfyn Llwyd | 443 c36 (Link to this contribution) The Government are very keen on consulting. We are told that they are a listening Government. They c...

Cheryl Gillan | 443 c36 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman almost plays into my hands. If it is just a question of behaviour in target seats...

Albert Owen | 443 c36 (Link to this contribution) : The crux of the Secretary of State’s argument was that under the present system an Assembly Member...

Cheryl Gillan | 443 c35-6 (Link to this contribution) That is the case. The hon. Gentleman makes the point well. That takes me back to my initial point th...

Lord Deben | 443 c87-8 (Link to this contribution) I rise to support the thrust of what the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Hywel Williams) said, although ...

Hywel Williams | 443 c85-7 (Link to this contribution) I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that intervention. We want to clarify the matter to avoid argum...

Lord Deben | 443 c85 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the hon. Gentleman sticks to that point. In my ministerial experience, there is a civil ...

Elfyn Llwyd | 443 c84 (Link to this contribution) Not everything is bilingual.

Hywel Williams | 443 c84-5 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for his sedentary intervention. The argument concerns why things should not b...

David TC Davies | 443 c90 (Link to this contribution) I would rather look at the bigger picture. There is a danger that we might end up going a bit too fa...

Elfyn Llwyd | 443 c90 (Link to this contribution) I am following the hon. Gentleman’s argument carefully. One can legislate for more Welsh language sp...

David TC Davies | 443 c89-90 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer) that the matter is as...

Lord Deben | 443 c88-9 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is right. We need to make it clear that the two languages of Wales...

Lembit Opik | 443 c88 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman makes a good point. As he rightly observes, the cultural conquest was large...

Speaker | 443 c94 (Link to this contribution) I sense that I have been a little generous in listening to those points of order, because it was sta...

Nick Ainger | 443 c94 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am shocked. We cannot win on this matter. We g...

David Mundell | 443 c93-4 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. On a major constitutional Bill, which the Secretary of Stat...

Lord Deben | 443 c94 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. There is an additional point. People outside wil...

Nick Ainger | 443 c93 (Link to this contribution) Yes. Having reassured the hon. Member for Caernarfon, I hope that he will now withdraw the amendmen...

Hywel Williams | 443 c93 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to withdraw the amendment. This has been a positive debate, and I thank Members who have ...

Lord Deben | 443 c92 (Link to this contribution) I have great sympathy with that argument, but will the Minister accept that the fact that it took a ...

Nick Ainger | 443 c92-3 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is right. As I said, I think that the Department has apologised fo...

Elfyn Llwyd | 443 c92 (Link to this contribution) I want to underline the point made by the right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer). My ho...

Nick Ainger | 443 c93 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that the name of Hugh Rawlings has featured in our debates, because he has been an importa...

Hywel Williams | 443 c93 (Link to this contribution) It would be useful if the Minister could respond to my point about ““proceedings”” and ““business””....

Lord Deben | 443 c93 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister assure the House that nothing that the word ““business”” would have comprehended w...

Nick Ainger | 443 c90-1 (Link to this contribution) This has been a good debate, and the fact that it is now 8.11 pm and we have all this time to debate...

Hywel Williams | 443 c91 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister confirm that that relates only to devolved matters, and that some Welsh language m...

Nick Ainger | 443 c91-2 (Link to this contribution) I believe that the only retained function relates to the use of Welsh in courts; that is virtually a...

Chris Bryant | 443 c43 (Link to this contribution) Not Greek?

David TC Davies | 443 c45 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept that Opposition parties are being extraordinarily politically generou...

Chris Bryant | 443 c29 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady said that there is much evidence that the people of Wales do not understand the curren...

Nick Ainger | 443 c92 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the right hon. Gentleman about the production of the licensing forms. I believe that th...

Chris Bryant | 443 c41 (Link to this contribution) If that were the case, I would wholeheartedly agree with the hon. Gentleman. However, Labour Members...

Wayne David | 443 c47 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman. I am very proud of that report. He referred to Leanne Wood AM. Does he t...

Wayne David | 443 c52 (Link to this contribution) They are in a minority.

David Heath | 443 c75 (Link to this contribution) Quite right.

Cheryl Gillan | 443 c31 (Link to this contribution) I love the way we move seamlessly from Wales to Scotland. I would have a great deal of sympathy with...

Lembit Opik | 443 c43 (Link to this contribution) Greek is certainly not my second language, but English is, so the hon. Gentleman should cut me some ...

David Mundell | 443 c60-1 (Link to this contribution) I do not support the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) bec...

Ian Lucas | 443 c45 (Link to this contribution) With due respect to the hon. Gentleman, when someone—particularly him—puts that argument to me, I im...

Nick Ainger | 443 c72-4 (Link to this contribution) As I go on, I shall certainly quote examples that may be helpful to the hon. Gentleman. The fact is ...

David TC Davies | 443 c84 (Link to this contribution) I am surprised, because so far as I am aware, every Assembly publication is bilingual. I have never ...

Subjects

Devolved matters

Accountability

Constituency size

Constituencies

Candidates

Devolution

Assembly measures

Elections

Disqualification

Functions

Languages