UK Parliament / Open data

National Insurance Contributions Bill

Debate on bills on Thursday, 15 December 2005, in the House of Commons, led by Baroness Primarolo. The answering member was Mark Hoban.
National Insurance Contributions Bill. Report stage and Third reading debate. Agreed to on question. Passed
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
440 c1479-534 
Session
2005-06
Department
Treasury
Legislative stage
Third reading and Report stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
National Insurance Contributions Bill 2005-06. Explanatory notes Bill 53-EN also published.
Tuesday, 11 October 2005
Bills
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Brooks Newmark | 440 c1515 (Link to this contribution) In respect of the date of retrospection, it is not that 2 December 2004 is a particularly offensive ...
Greg Knight | 440 c1514-5 (Link to this contribution) I am still reflecting on whether I would support my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr. Cho...

Show all contributions (167)
Greg Knight | 440 c1514 (Link to this contribution) The retrospective clawback gave me cause for concern. I should like to make some general comments a...
Eric Forth | 440 c1514 (Link to this contribution) The concept of retrospective maternity pay is rather interesting.
Greg Knight | 440 c1513-4 (Link to this contribution) I want to start by speaking about amendment No. 18, which is a probing amendment. If the Paymaster G...
Christopher Chope | 440 c1512-3 (Link to this contribution) Hon. Members must draw their own conclusions. When the Paymaster General made her statement, if the ...
Eric Forth | 440 c1512 (Link to this contribution) Now I am puzzled, because I am sure that my hon. Friend heard, as I did, the Minister boasting that ...
Rob Marris | 440 c1515-6 (Link to this contribution) I shall try to be brief, for the sake of my right hon. Friend the Paymaster General. I would be int...
Christopher Chope | 440 c1510 (Link to this contribution) Yes, that seems extremely likely. Indeed, page 12 of the explanatory notes, which carries the sub-he...
Greg Knight | 440 c1510 (Link to this contribution) Is my hon. Friend aware that he can pray in aid the judgment in the case of The Sunday Times v. The ...
Eric Forth | 440 c1510 (Link to this contribution) The Chancellor would say that, wouldn’t he?
James Duddridge | 440 c1510 (Link to this contribution) I am confused, as the front page of the Bill carries a statement by the Chancellor of the Exchequer ...
Christopher Chope | 440 c1509 (Link to this contribution) Certainly. The idea of governing by ministerial fiat, by statement, is dangerous, and not only in th...
Christopher Chope | 440 c1510 (Link to this contribution) I wholeheartedly agree, which is why Magna Carta, to which my right hon. Friend the Member for East ...
Eric Forth | 440 c1509-10 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that since the SIPPs fiasco, no one should ever believe a Government Minis...
Christopher Chope | 440 c1510-1 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. My hon. Friend the Member for Rochford and Southend, East (James Duddridge) is an assiduous ...
Brooks Newmark | 440 c1511 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend mentioned Adam Smith. There is a great passage in ““The Wealth of Nations”” that has ...
Christopher Chope | 440 c1511-2 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. I did him a disservice in attributing the use of that quote to my hon. Frie...
Mark Hoban | 440 c1519-20 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman shouts out ““the Magna Carta””, but I am not entirely sure that national insuranc...
Speaker | 440 c1518 (Link to this contribution) Order. It might make for a better debate if the hon. Member for Fareham (Mr. Hoban) spoke at this po...
Michael Fallon | 440 c1521 (Link to this contribution) Will the Paymaster General give way?
Baroness Primarolo | 440 c1520-1 (Link to this contribution) Conservative Members quote the Rees rules but I am not sure that they understand exactly how they ar...
Rob Marris | 440 c1516 (Link to this contribution) I see the hon. Gentleman nodding. In the case of this legislation, we have precision, consultation—a...
Rob Marris | 440 c1516 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman raised that issue, as I was just about to come on to that—
Eric Forth | 440 c1516 (Link to this contribution) What comment does the hon. Gentleman have about those modest-income people who took advice to go int...
Rob Marris | 440 c1516 (Link to this contribution) It is written in my notes. Does the right hon. Gentleman wish to see it? He can probably read it fro...
Rob Marris | 440 c1516-7 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman believes me. The right hon. Gentleman referred to people of...
Rob Marris | 440 c1517-8 (Link to this contribution) That is a helpful intervention, because my right hon. Friend the Paymaster General and I differ from...
Christopher Chope | 440 c1517 (Link to this contribution) Surely the principle is knowing what the situation is. On 11 October, the Bill was published and any...
Christopher Chope | 440 c1518 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is a distinguished lawyer, but surely if his interpretation were correct, the sub...
Rob Marris | 440 c1531 (Link to this contribution) : Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that he favours a move to a portmanteau Finance Bill that covers ...
Mark Hoban | 440 c1531 (Link to this contribution) As ever, the hon. Gentleman has made a pertinent and thought-provoking point. Some have suggested th...
Baroness Primarolo | 440 c1531 (Link to this contribution) The Bill does not allow for a 12-month delay—it says that statutory instruments must come into force...
Baroness Primarolo | 440 c1526-8 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time. We have reached the final stage of the Hou...
Mark Hoban | 440 c1528-31 (Link to this contribution) At the outset, may I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Field...
Greg Knight | 440 c1523 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 21, in page 14, line 22,leave out
Speaker | 440 c1523 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 22, in page 14 , leave out...
Greg Knight | 440 c1523-5 (Link to this contribution) I will speak to amendments Nos. 21 and 23, but leave my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr....
Stephen Hammond | 440 c1495 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman speaks of limiting retrospectivity to 2 December 2004. However, he knows that, al...
Rob Marris | 440 c1495 (Link to this contribution) I shall not be pulled into discussing clause 5 because I am sure you would not allow that, Mr. Deput...
Stephen Hammond | 440 c1495-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way yet again. He mentions tax advice. On Second Read...
Christopher Chope | 440 c1496 (Link to this contribution) Before the hon. Gentleman allows us to believe that there is nothing wrong with the date of 2 Decemb...
Rob Marris | 440 c1496 (Link to this contribution) I have no reason to doubt that such words were said—I think by the Chartered Institute of Taxation—b...
Mark Hoban | 440 c1496 (Link to this contribution) Given the time that has been spent on this first group of amendments, and the importance of the succ...
Baroness Primarolo | 440 c1496-7 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will have noticed that the tax part of this anti-avoidance measure...
Rob Marris | 440 c1495 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is eager—I shall give way shortly. The amendments essentially seek to strip retro...
David Howarth | 440 c1505 (Link to this contribution) I am following what the right hon. Gentleman says with great interest and agree with most of it. How...
Eric Forth | 440 c1505 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I fear that my right hon. Friend is right. I am worried that we are finding that gradually over...
Peter Bottomley | 440 c1504 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is being uncommonly generous. In fact, the Government are being just as arbitra...
Eric Forth | 440 c1504 (Link to this contribution) In many ways, these amendments bring us to the core of the Bill. I shall leave my right hon. and hon...
Greg Knight | 440 c1505 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is making a good point. If passed, will not the Bill rip up the rights that we ...
Eric Forth | 440 c1504-5 (Link to this contribution) Of course I agree with my hon. Friend. The Government would probably say, ““Well, it does not matter...
Christopher Chope | 440 c1501 (Link to this contribution) I know that my right hon. Friend is normally suspicious of consensus, but has he noted the support a...
Eric Forth | 440 c1501 (Link to this contribution) Yes, and I thought that it was very significant. Having listened to what my hon. Friend the Member ...
Eric Forth | 440 c1503 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 5, in page 2, leave out lines 10 to 12.
Speaker | 440 c1503-4 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 6, in page 2, leave out li...
Eric Forth | 440 c1501 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who has elegantly summed up the tone of this debate and illustrated...
Brooks Newmark | 440 c1501 (Link to this contribution) Is not the Paymaster General’s earlier answer to my right hon. Friend a case in point? It may well h...
Eric Forth | 440 c1500-1 (Link to this contribution) It certainly has been a revealing debate and the Paymaster General’s petulance gives the lie to some...
Baroness Primarolo | 440 c1499-500 (Link to this contribution) I want to make some progress. As the hon. Member for Christchurch implied, this is not about making...
Brooks Newmark | 440 c1499 (Link to this contribution) Will the Paymaster General give way?
Baroness Primarolo | 440 c1498-9 (Link to this contribution) This has been a long and broad debate, covering a number of areas. I want to touch on each of them i...
Vincent Cable | 440 c1497-8 (Link to this contribution) I want to support amendment No. 14, which seems reasonable and sensible—““reasonable”” is the operat...
Rob Marris | 440 c1497 (Link to this contribution) I think that the Official Report will show—obviously, I stand to be corrected—that I only mentioned ...
Mark Hoban | 440 c1497 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for using the hon. Gentleman’s remarks in response to an intervention. Next time we come...
Mark Hoban | 440 c1497 (Link to this contribution) At this early stage, I am loth to break the spirit of consensus that my right hon. Friend the Memb...
Baroness Primarolo | 440 c1508-9 (Link to this contribution) I think that I can help the hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr...
Christopher Chope | 440 c1508 (Link to this contribution) I very much agree, especially as the title of the ministerial statement was ““Finance Bill””.
Brooks Newmark | 440 c1509 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend share my concern that such written statements will create a precedent for furthe...
Christopher Chope | 440 c1509 (Link to this contribution) The point at issue is whether on that date in December 2004 anyone reading that written statement, w...
Eric Forth | 440 c1507 (Link to this contribution) I will give the hon. Gentleman another go, provided that he will not tempt me to get into your bad b...
Ed Balls | 440 c1507-8 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the chance to intervene again, and I shall try to make sure that I phrase my quest...
Eric Forth | 440 c1508 (Link to this contribution) With more than half an eye on you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I say briefly that we should have a British w...
Christopher Chope | 440 c1508 (Link to this contribution) I enthusiastically support amendment No.5. With no collusion, my right hon. Friend the Member for Br...
Eric Forth | 440 c1508 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has just pointed out that the measure was originally promulgated through a ministeria...
Speaker | 440 c1507 (Link to this contribution) I can see that the hon. Gentleman is getting himself into training for elevation to the Chairmen’s P...
James Duddridge | 440 c1507 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman’s comments were interesting, but were they in any way relevant to this debate?
Eric Forth | 440 c1507 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for saying that something I said was important—it is the first t...
Ed Balls | 440 c1507 (Link to this contribution) I am struggling to follow the argument, but I was interested in some of the right hon. Gentleman’s e...
Eric Forth | 440 c1507 (Link to this contribution) My frustration, of course, is that I am unable to give the hon. Gentleman the answer that I would lo...
Eric Forth | 440 c1505-6 (Link to this contribution) I concede to the hon. Gentleman that that is a possibility. It is something that he and the House mu...
Rob Marris | 440 c1506 (Link to this contribution) I understand the right hon. Gentleman’s remarks about the powers of the Government and I tend to agr...
Eric Forth | 440 c1506-7 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has been here long enough to know that subsequent legislation is not as easy as i...
Rob Marris | 440 c1506 (Link to this contribution) I draw the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the bit of proposed new section 4C(3)(a) that he...
Eric Forth | 440 c1506 (Link to this contribution) That line is not retrospective—it must be the only provision in the Bill that is not. I congratulate...
Philip Hollobone | 440 c1486 (Link to this contribution) In looking at the amendments, I am torn between those tabled by my hon. Friend and those tabled by m...
Christopher Chope | 440 c1486 (Link to this contribution) : I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) on stealing...
Eric Forth | 440 c1485-6 (Link to this contribution) We seem to have touched a rather raw nerve there, Madam Deputy Speaker, do we not? The Minister will...
Eric Forth | 440 c1487 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps my hon. Friend will be able, as I was not because I wanted to leave time for my hon. Friends...
Christopher Chope | 440 c1487 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend was not Deputy Chief Whip for nothing. We can see that he has great powers of d...
Greg Knight | 440 c1487 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is, if I, as a Privy Counsellor, may say so, far too self-effacing. Perhaps the answe...
Christopher Chope | 440 c1486-7 (Link to this contribution) The first point is that, as a rule of thumb, my hon. Friend should be inclined to prefer what my rig...
Eric Forth | 440 c1485 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to the Minister, who rises with papers in her hands that probably came to her from h...
Christopher Chope | 440 c1487 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. He and I are saying to the House that if, as we will no do...
Greg Knight | 440 c1484 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend tell the House in which dictionary he looked up that definition? I, too, h...
Eric Forth | 440 c1483-4 (Link to this contribution) I will do that with enthusiasm, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am asking hon. Members to judge whether the...
Brooks Newmark | 440 c1484 (Link to this contribution) Although I do not wish to be pedantic about the use of language, I am still not clear why we should ...
Eric Forth | 440 c1484 (Link to this contribution) I looked at one of the longer versions of the ““Oxford””, but I prefer my right hon. Friend’s defini...
Peter Bone | 440 c1485 (Link to this contribution) I would like the words ““in exceptional circumstances only”” to be added to the Bill before the word...
Eric Forth | 440 c1484-5 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is challenging the whole principle underlying the Bill, which I would love to do. We ...
James Duddridge | 440 c1485 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend explain why the Minister has not risen to her feet to explain the differen...
Eric Forth | 440 c1485 (Link to this contribution) I wish that my hon. Friend had tabled an amendment to that effect. I suspect that it might well have...
Eric Forth | 440 c1482-3 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps we will come back to that broader question later, but my right hon. Friend is right. The Bil...
Eric Forth | 440 c1482 (Link to this contribution) The answer is probably shame and guilt. I slaved in the low foothills of government for some nine ye...
Eric Forth | 440 c1481-2 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that my hon. Friend would not want to hurry me on to the next part of my argument because ...
Christopher Chope | 440 c1481 (Link to this contribution) Has my right hon. Friend noticed the difference between what he is now reading from the text about s...
Speaker | 440 c1483 (Link to this contribution) Order. Of course the proper job of the right hon. Gentleman now is to speak to his amendment, which ...
James Duddridge | 440 c1483 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my right hon. Friend on moving the amendment and seek his wise counsel as someone who...
Eric Forth | 440 c1483 (Link to this contribution) I share my hon. Friend’s reservations. He and I must chide our Front-Bench spokesmen a little—I do t...
Speaker | 440 c1479 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 14, in page 1, line 17, le...
Eric Forth | 440 c1479 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 1, in page 1, line 13, after ‘Treasury’, insert
Greg Knight | 440 c1480 (Link to this contribution) Is not what my right hon. Friend has just read out a lethal health warning in that, in effect, even ...
Eric Forth | 440 c1480-1 (Link to this contribution) I understand what my right hon. Friend is saying. If he will bear with me for just a short while, I ...
Peter Bone | 440 c1481 (Link to this contribution) I am not convinced by the point that my right hon. Friend makes. Perhaps he could clarify. If the Go...
Brooks Newmark | 440 c1493 (Link to this contribution) : On retrospection, which has been raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire (Mr....
Rob Marris | 440 c1493 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who makes my point for me. In the light of his remarks, I urge ...
Brooks Newmark | 440 c1493 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman answer my question about the retrospectivity of taxation? It may well be exp...
Rob Marris | 440 c1493-4 (Link to this contribution) I accept that some Members would see it as unreasonable. That is why I urged my right hon. Friend ...
Rob Marris | 440 c1494 (Link to this contribution) I thought that the East Riding was bigger than East Yorkshire, but perhaps not. Behind the amendmen...
James Duddridge | 440 c1494 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the greater duty of care involved means that one needs to be much...
Rob Marris | 440 c1494 (Link to this contribution) I agree that one needs to be particularly careful when addressing matters retrospectively through le...
Stephen Hammond | 440 c1494-5 (Link to this contribution) : On Second Reading, the hon. Gentleman held a discourse, which I am sure we are about to hear again...
Rob Marris | 440 c1495 (Link to this contribution) I reject the concept of prejudice against the City of London. If one reads the regulatory impact as...
Christopher Chope | 440 c1491 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is right, as I have not been able to find any reference in a Treasury statute t...
Eric Forth | 440 c1490 (Link to this contribution) Although the concept of reasonableness frequently occurs in legislation sponsored by other Governmen...
Rob Marris | 440 c1493 (Link to this contribution) Not at all. If the right hon. Gentleman allows me to develop my points, he will understand them in a...
Greg Knight | 440 c1493 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making an amusing and interesting point, but may I draw his attention to the s...
Rob Marris | 440 c1492 (Link to this contribution) First, may I apologise to the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth)? I missed th...
Eric Forth | 440 c1492 (Link to this contribution) Presumably we can draw the conclusion that the hon. Gentleman and the Government whom he supports im...
Christopher Chope | 440 c1491 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend appears to be criticising amendment No. 15, which would leave the test of reasonablen...
Greg Knight | 440 c1491-2 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) and my hon. Friend the Membe...
Stephen Hammond | 440 c1487 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that my hon. Friend is aware that clause 1 allows the Treasury to adjust earnings on any l...
Christopher Chope | 440 c1487-9 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend, a distinguished member of the Standing Committee that considered the Bill, is right ...
Speaker | 440 c1489 (Link to this contribution) Order. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not be led too far astray by the right hon. Member for Br...
Christopher Chope | 440 c1490 (Link to this contribution) I shall certainly endeavour to do so, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I am sorry if my previous response s...
Eric Forth | 440 c1489 (Link to this contribution) That is what gives us a little ray of hope. As my hon. Friend rightly points out, in the Bill the Tr...
Eric Forth | 440 c1489 (Link to this contribution) I was not able to consider this point, but my hon. Friend may be able to come to a judgment: does he...
Christopher Chope | 440 c1489 (Link to this contribution) I am only just beginning a close examination of the European convention on human rights, as I have r...
Mark Hoban | 440 c1531-2 (Link to this contribution) The secondary legislation may be delayed for up to 12 months, although it does not have to be delaye...
Rob Marris | 440 c1533 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman says that the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne) pressed for some figures bu...
Vincent Cable | 440 c1533 (Link to this contribution) I have merely read through the transcript of the Committee—I was not there at the time, unfortunatel...
Brooks Newmark | 440 c1533-4 (Link to this contribution) As the Paymaster General knows, I have been involved in the process from the beginning and I have be...
Greg Knight | 440 c1525-6 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. I would like to know whether the Minister thinks that pro...
Eric Forth | 440 c1485 (Link to this contribution) I suspect—and, looking behind you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I can see that a piece of paper is about to...
Rob Marris | 440 c1518 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman and I differ, in that I do not agree that it is retrospective, but I understand h...
Eric Forth | 440 c1523 (Link to this contribution) At least we have got the Minister to come to the House and give explanations, for which we are grate...
Rob Marris | 440 c1496 (Link to this contribution) That is way beyond the scope of the amendments. I am prepared to discuss it with the hon. Gentleman ...
Baroness Primarolo | 440 c1482 (Link to this contribution) While the right hon. Gentleman is setting out his views on retrospection, will he explain why he vot...
Eric Forth | 440 c1479-80 (Link to this contribution) It might be appropriate to say a word or two about the context of this afternoon’s business, because...
Brooks Newmark | 440 c1491 (Link to this contribution) : I may be able to help my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth). The...
Rob Marris | 440 c1493 (Link to this contribution) It is not an entirely different matter, because we are discussing the word ““reasonable”” in the con...
Christopher Chope | 440 c1490 (Link to this contribution) Obviously, it would be better than not accepting the amendment at all but, in deference to my hon. F...
Christopher Chope | 440 c1489 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is right. That is an important point for the Minister to address when she respo...
Mark Hoban | 440 c1518-9 (Link to this contribution) The amendments deal mainly with the retrospective nature of the Bill, a topic that was considered bo...
Peter Bone | 440 c1525 (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest as a chartered account, although I have not practised in public for many years...
Baroness Primarolo | 440 c1485 (Link to this contribution) Those comments were unworthy of the right hon. Gentleman. He is entertaining the House very well thi...
Greg Knight | 440 c1482 (Link to this contribution) Has my right hon. Friend not missed a point in his reply to the Minister? The Bill introduces unspec...
Eric Forth | 440 c1481 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a fair point. The judgment that we must make is between the overall statutory f...
Vincent Cable | 440 c1532-3 (Link to this contribution) : There are important elements of consensus and agreement on the Bill, but there are also some eleme...
Robert Smith | 440 c1514 (Link to this contribution) Would not amendment No. 16 provide some protection and some improvement on the clause? The hon. Memb...
Baroness Primarolo | 440 c1521-3 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not, if the hon. Gentleman does not mind. He has not been here for all of this very long ...
James Duddridge | 440 c1490 (Link to this contribution) : My hon. Friend’s amendment would replace one word with another. Did he consider adding both ““expe...
Subjects
Disclosure of information
Abuse
Accountancy
Advisory services
Eligibility
Incentives
Income tax
Employees' contributions
Employers' contributions
National insurance
Personal income
Pay
Powers
National insurance contributions
Stocks and shares
Tax avoidance
Taxation
Tax yields
Retrospective legislation
Legislation
National Insurance Contributions Bill 2005-06
Link
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