UK Parliament / Open data

Council Tax (New Valuation Lists for England) Bill

Debate on bills on Thursday, 1 December 2005, in the House of Commons, led by Phil Woolas. The answering member was Angela Watkinson.
Council Tax (New Valuation Lists for England) Bill. Report stage and Third reading debate. Agreed to on question. Passed.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
440 c406-88 
Session
2005-06
Department
Office of the Deputy Prime Minister
Legislative stage
Third reading and Report stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Council Tax (New Valuation Lists for England) Bill. Explanatory notes Bill 57-EN also published. (vote)
Thursday, 13 October 2005
Bills
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Mark Francois | 440 c487 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for admitting that the switch took place. I am pleased that a La...
Phil Woolas | 440 c487-8 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman would be fairer if he acknowledged that the level of grant to Essex has increased...

Show all contributions (352)
Mark Francois | 440 c488 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for my hon. Friend tempting me to stray, Mr. Deputy Speaker, although I would just say, ...
Speaker | 440 c488 (Link to this contribution) Order. Perhaps in the last few minutes of the debate we could return to the terms of the Third Readi...
Paul Beresford | 440 c488 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps part of the answer is that even if the Minister is right that Essex got more in percentage t...
Mark Francois | 440 c488 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is well aware of what happened, as am I and all Members of this House. The public react...
David Howarth | 440 c485 (Link to this contribution) What the hon. Gentleman says is, in part, true. Council tax benefit partly offsets the regressive na...
Mark Francois | 440 c485 (Link to this contribution) I do not wish to misrepresent the hon. Gentleman, but I think he said a few minutes ago that there w...
Neil Turner | 440 c487 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the vast majority of deprived areas are in central London, the w...
Mark Francois | 440 c485-7 (Link to this contribution) I declare something of an interest in an historical sense at least, having served in local governmen...
David Howarth | 440 c483-4 (Link to this contribution) Last Thursday, in answer to a question that I put to him during business questions, the Leader of th...
Angela Watkinson | 440 c483 (Link to this contribution) That would be unthinkable, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but one or two hon. Members raised the subject on Rep...
David Howarth | 440 c484-5 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman’s proposal is a halfway house. It is technically possible—in fact, it would be pa...
Paul Beresford | 440 c484 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman reflect on what was said on Second Reading and consider the possibility of c...
Mark Francois | 440 c427 (Link to this contribution) I understand my hon. Friend’s point. I, too, served in local government, albeit not at the same seni...
Paul Beresford | 440 c427 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend must take account of the point that, if the local authority does not increase its tot...
Mark Francois | 440 c426-7 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a good point, which I intended to raise because it is the second reason for my ...
Mark Francois | 440 c426 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker. I was looking at my hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley to try ...
Speaker | 440 c426 (Link to this contribution) Order. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman could address the Chair.
Mark Francois | 440 c425-6 (Link to this contribution) I rise to make a few points about the amendment. It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Membe...
Brian Binley | 440 c424-5 (Link to this contribution) That certainly would not be for the first time, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I am grateful to you for p...
Speaker | 440 c424 (Link to this contribution) Order. I think that the hon. Gentleman’s right hon. Friend might be leading him somewhat astray.
Brian Binley | 440 c425 (Link to this contribution) As I understand it, local authorities could carry out a revaluation only if the Secretary of State a...
Eric Forth | 440 c424 (Link to this contribution) I am becoming increasingly worried about my hon. Friend’s touching faith in the integrity of a mecha...
Brian Binley | 440 c424 (Link to this contribution) I understand and take your guidance, Madam Deputy Speaker. My point was that the amendment would ena...
Speaker | 440 c424 (Link to this contribution) Order. May I remind the hon. Gentleman to make his remarks relevant to the amendment, not just reval...
Brian Binley | 440 c424 (Link to this contribution) That is exactly the point that I was trying to make, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for support...
David Howarth | 440 c422 (Link to this contribution) I was about to make the same point, Madam Deputy Speaker. I would be glad to debate the merits of lo...
Speaker | 440 c422 (Link to this contribution) Order. I remind the hon. Gentleman that we are not discussing any other kind of tax; we are discussi...
Paul Beresford | 440 c422 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is being provocative, and I refer him to what I said on Second Reading. There is ...
David Howarth | 440 c421-2 (Link to this contribution) There are two reasons why I shall be very brief. First, I am a late substitute for my hon. Friend th...
Paul Beresford | 440 c423 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for supporting the amendment. In response to my right hon. Friend the Member ...
Greg Knight | 440 c422-3 (Link to this contribution) If what my hon. Friend has just said were in the amendment, I could agree with him. On reflection, d...
Brian Binley | 440 c422 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) on tabling the amendme...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 440 c424 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an important point about unfairness. Does he agree that unless there are regula...
Brian Binley | 440 c423-4 (Link to this contribution) I understand that point and accept the dangers. However, I see the matter from a local government pe...
Paul Beresford | 440 c419-20 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for taking another risk by giving way. In fact, that is not what I said. Alth...
Robert Syms | 440 c419 (Link to this contribution) There is no doubt that the cost of a national revaluation is a little under £200 million—£170 millio...
Eric Forth | 440 c420 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend not find at least slightly attractive the idea of a small expert hit squad of va...
Robert Syms | 440 c420 (Link to this contribution) That is an interesting argument. Given the various options that amendment No. 3 allows, how would th...
Speaker | 440 c420 (Link to this contribution) Order. We are not on Second Reading, and we will not have a repeat debate on Second Reading. We are ...
Lord Deben | 440 c420 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can help my hon. Friend get back to the amendment. Does he accept that although this may n...
Robert Syms | 440 c420 (Link to this contribution) Thank you for your guidance, Madam Deputy Speaker. I was led astray.
Robert Syms | 440 c420-1 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend makes a very good point. The difficulty is that if the current structure of cou...
Robert Syms | 440 c419 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend the Member for Cotswold (Mr. Clifton-Brown) is speaking about the widespread public c...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 440 c419 (Link to this contribution) The purpose of my long intervention was to say that such measures would increase the cost of such va...
Speaker | 440 c419 (Link to this contribution) Interventions, as the hon. Gentleman knows, are to be brief. I hope he has now concluded. I call Mr....
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 440 c419 (Link to this contribution) I draw the attention of the House to the fact that I am a chartered surveyor, a fellow of the Royal ...
Speaker | 440 c419 (Link to this contribution) Order. I understood this to be an intervention.
Paul Beresford | 440 c418 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is very patient. I would hate to shorten his speech, but one of the difficulties with...
Robert Syms | 440 c418-9 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for putting that again on the record. The Lyons review is examining a range o...
Alan Whitehead | 440 c418 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right. In my previous intervention I should have referred to section 77 of the...
Robert Syms | 440 c418 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to stray too far, not because I do not want to answer the hon. Gentleman, but because ...
Robert Syms | 440 c418 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that my hon. Friend has explained that—even though he is straying somewhat from party poli...
Speaker | 440 c417 (Link to this contribution) Order. Perhaps the hon. Gentlemen will not mind my intervening to inform the House that the necessar...
Robert Syms | 440 c417 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I give way to my hon. Friend.
Paul Beresford | 440 c417 (Link to this contribution) I am beginning to wonder whether I should do as was suggested earlier and give my speech all over ag...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 440 c416 (Link to this contribution) As my hon. Friend says, the Government’s U-turn on revaluation in response to the arguments that we ...
Speaker | 440 c416 (Link to this contribution) Order. Perhaps the hon. Member for Poole (Mr. Syms) will speak to the amendment.
Robert Syms | 440 c416-7 (Link to this contribution) Thank you for your protection, Madam Deputy Speaker. Amendment No. 3 is simple, but there is a deba...
Robert Syms | 440 c416 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the authorities have heard my hon. Friend’s question. No doubt he read that legislati...
Speaker | 440 c415 (Link to this contribution) That is a matter for the Government. Members of the Government are present and will have heard the h...
Paul Beresford | 440 c415-6 (Link to this contribution) For a moment, I feared that the carefully thought out suggestion offered by my right hon. Friend the...
Speaker | 440 c415 (Link to this contribution) I do not intend to take any further points of order on that issue.
Lord Davies of Stamford | 440 c415 (Link to this contribution) On a separate point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Leaving aside entirely the shambles of not havin...
Mark Francois | 440 c416 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for interrupting my hon. Friend, but he referred to the Local Government Act 2003, which...
Speaker | 440 c415 (Link to this contribution) I have already said that I shall make further inquires into how soon the necessary papers will be in...
Speaker | 440 c415 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I will not be minded to do that.
Greg Knight | 440 c415 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I wish to put on the record the fact that the situation i...
Grant Shapps | 440 c414 (Link to this contribution) Some 80,000 homes will be built in Hertfordshire, mostly up in Stevenage, which is above my constitu...
Paul Beresford | 440 c414 (Link to this contribution) I am worried that as many hon. Members are citing areas in which they want revaluation, they seem to...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 440 c414 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I left the Chamber a moment ago—I apologise for such disc...
Speaker | 440 c414-5 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman was in the Chamber when Mr. Speaker made his ruling about the urgency of getting ...
Lord Deben | 440 c415 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. When the Speaker made those points, it occurre...
Speaker | 440 c415 (Link to this contribution) My intention, which I hope will satisfy hon. Members, is to make further inquiries into precisely ho...
Eric Forth | 440 c415 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Perhaps you will help by allowing my hon. Frie...
Paul Beresford | 440 c413 (Link to this contribution) Bearing in mind my accent and recent sporting activities in Wales, that is probably a very good thin...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 440 c413 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend argues the case for the law to be changed to permit individual or group revaluation i...
Paul Beresford | 440 c413-4 (Link to this contribution) Unfortunately, I do not have the figures with me. However, I am sure that the Minister for Local Gov...
Christopher Chope | 440 c429 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. Of course, the First Secretary of State talks a lot about l...
Mark Francois | 440 c429 (Link to this contribution) To drive the point home again, the reservations of some of us, to draw another parallel, are based o...
Christopher Chope | 440 c429 (Link to this contribution) Certainly. That does not undermine my argument, however, that the overall average council tax bill h...
Phil Woolas | 440 c429 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the Halifax survey, by its own admission, did not take into acco...
Lord Deben | 440 c429 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that we knew that that would happen because it became clear from the Red B...
Speaker | 440 c430 (Link to this contribution) Order. We are not discussing the clarity of local government finance.
Christopher Chope | 440 c430 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is right. Beyond the Government’s overall policy to increase the national burd...
Greg Knight | 440 c430 (Link to this contribution) What would my hon. Friend’s constituents say if amendment No. 3 were incorporated into the Bill and ...
Christopher Chope | 440 c430-1 (Link to this contribution) My constituents would be angry with the Government for using such perverse reasoning. My right hon. ...
David Howarth | 440 c431 (Link to this contribution) I accept that what the hon. Gentleman says is true in part, but one problem with his argument is tha...
Mark Francois | 440 c427-8 (Link to this contribution) I understand my right hon. Friend’s point, but if one considers, for example, the experience in Wale...
Lord Deben | 440 c427 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend consider the other side of the argument? If the people who live near the new dev...
Mark Francois | 440 c427 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to my right hon. Friend first.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 440 c428 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is an expert on the matters that we are considering. He served on the Committee that ...
Mark Francois | 440 c428 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend and I both served on that Committee and I greatly enjoyed the debates. I genuinely un...
Brian Binley | 440 c428 (Link to this contribution) No, my hon. Friend has now covered the point that I wanted to make and I thank him.
Mark Francois | 440 c428 (Link to this contribution) In that case, I shall conclude my remarks.
Christopher Chope | 440 c429 (Link to this contribution) I think that the anomalies could be corrected by a Secretary of State of a Conservative hue. That is...
Christopher Chope | 440 c428 (Link to this contribution) I support amendment No. 3, which was tabled by my former colleague on Wandsworth council, my hon. Fr...
Eric Forth | 440 c428-9 (Link to this contribution) Before my hon. Friend becomes too enthusiastic, does he agree that the original wording in the Bill ...
Speaker | 440 c406 (Link to this contribution) I like to deal with here and now, not any period in the future.
Eric Forth | 440 c406 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am grateful for your helpful suggestion, but can you ...
Speaker | 440 c406 (Link to this contribution) I think that we must continue, and I have called Sir Paul Beresford to move his amendment. However, ...
Greg Knight | 440 c406 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. We are dealing here with a very important piece of legislation, bu...
Paul Beresford | 440 c406 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 3, in page 1, line 8, at end insert—
Paul Beresford | 440 c408 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend answers his own question. In such a situation, a judicial review would be a pro...
Paul Beresford | 440 c408 (Link to this contribution) I agree, and the amendment derives from the point made on Second Reading that it would provide an op...
Lord Deben | 440 c408 (Link to this contribution) It is remarkable that it is accepted as completely plausible that a Government might behave in the w...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 440 c408 (Link to this contribution) Because we do not have the Act that the Bill will amend before us, it is very difficult to follow ev...
Paul Beresford | 440 c408-9 (Link to this contribution) I should perhaps have explained that, but I was aware that in doing so I might transgress a little b...
Speaker | 440 c409 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman said that he wanted to give a brief explanation. I was prepared to allow t...
Eric Forth | 440 c409 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Would you not perhaps concede that a degree of flexibilit...
Speaker | 440 c409 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that I disagree with the right hon. Gentleman, because he is a very experienced Member a...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 440 c409 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am a slightly less experienced Member than m...
Speaker | 440 c409 (Link to this contribution) I do not accept that point of order. The hon. Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) has been g...
Speaker | 440 c406 (Link to this contribution) Order. If the hon. Gentleman is going to go on about this matter, it is not a point of order.
Lord Davies of Stamford | 440 c406-7 (Link to this contribution) As you can see, Mr. Speaker, there are many references to the Local Government Finance Act 1992 in t...
Speaker | 440 c407 (Link to this contribution) I knew that it was not a point of order. I have instructed officials to make the Act available and w...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 440 c406 (Link to this contribution) It really is a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Speaker | 440 c406 (Link to this contribution) Well, I shall be surprised if it is.
Paul Beresford | 440 c407 (Link to this contribution) There would have to be some justification for doing so. An order would have to be produced, which co...
Eric Forth | 440 c407-8 (Link to this contribution) The point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight) also worries me. W...
Paul Beresford | 440 c407 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that we will be able to limp on without that Act, although I admit that I do not know it w...
Speaker | 440 c412 (Link to this contribution) Order. Interventions are to be brief.
Lord Davies of Stamford | 440 c412 (Link to this contribution) I refer my hon. Friend back to what he said about the phrase"““a group of adjoining billing authorit...
Alan Whitehead | 440 c412 (Link to this contribution) I, too, have followed closely the logic of the hon. Gentleman’s exposition of the amendment. I under...
Paul Beresford | 440 c412 (Link to this contribution) I think that the answer to my hon. Friend’s question is that I was attempting to make the amendment ...
Paul Beresford | 440 c412 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State would decide. My hon. Friend needs to recognise that if the ability-to-pay as...
Speaker | 440 c413 (Link to this contribution) Order. I think that I might just protect the hon. Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) so tha...
Paul Beresford | 440 c412-3 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for his complex twisting questions and red herrings. I think that he will...
Lord Deben | 440 c413 (Link to this contribution) Is not my hon. Friend being rather unkind to the hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Dr. Whitehead)? ...
Paul Beresford | 440 c413 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is perhaps right. The hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Dr. Whitehead) gave a ...
Philip Hollobone | 440 c413 (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest as a member of Kettering borough council. I am trying to wrap my mind around m...
Speaker | 440 c410 (Link to this contribution) I remind the right hon. Gentleman that he is not chairing the debate—I am—and I have made a ruling.
Lord Deben | 440 c410 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am sorry to raise this issue. I have been carefully fol...
Speaker | 440 c410 (Link to this contribution) Order. Once again, the hon. Gentleman is straying very wide of the amendment, which is narrow in sco...
Paul Beresford | 440 c409-10 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Bill relates to a national revaluation, and as I have tried to...
Paul Beresford | 440 c411 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps that explains why the opportunity to give a broader explanation would have been helpful, bec...
Peter Bone | 440 c412 (Link to this contribution) I have an interest in that my constituency has suffered the biggest ever increase in council tax. Wh...
Paul Beresford | 440 c411 (Link to this contribution) I admit that my right hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon and I tabled new clause 1, but we...
Greg Knight | 440 c411 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that my hon. Friend is not making much headway with me, because I have reached the concl...
Paul Beresford | 440 c411 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am trying to set out exactly such an example, but perhaps I stray...
Mark Francois | 440 c411 (Link to this contribution) If I understand the spirit of the amendment correctly, it would essentially allow a localised revalu...
Lord Deben | 440 c460 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that the danger—if it exists—is less than it might otherwise be, giv...
Eric Forth | 440 c459-60 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way first to my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer). I do so...
Eric Forth | 440 c459 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right and he displays yet again his intimate and profound knowledge of these matte...
Anne Main | 440 c460 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend touched on localism, so let us consider the very small picture. A large superma...
Eric Forth | 440 c460 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend touches on one of the key issues, which I shall now consider, if I may; it will not d...
Peter Bone | 440 c460 (Link to this contribution) At the start of this debate, I was considerably confused as to whether to support the amendment; tha...
Eric Forth | 440 c460 (Link to this contribution) I of course accept, hesitatingly, my right hon. Friend’s guidance on this issue for the reason that ...
Eric Forth | 440 c460-1 (Link to this contribution) I think that that would depend on the trust that we place in the integrity of the valuation process,...
Lee Scott | 440 c460 (Link to this contribution) One problem is that, in areas such as the Thames gateway, which takes in a number of different autho...
Eric Forth | 440 c460 (Link to this contribution) That illustrates well the inherent dangers. When we vote on the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend t...
Eric Forth | 440 c461 (Link to this contribution) I want to deal with the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Bone), which...
Philip Davies | 440 c461 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is making a typically thoughtful contribution, but I do not want him to get awa...
Eric Forth | 440 c461 (Link to this contribution) One problem with the debate is that it has revealed so many difficulties that it has become more and...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 440 c461 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend spend a few minutes exploring the power that the Secretary of State would ...
Lord Deben | 440 c462 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has not looked at what the deprivation index covers. The real problem is that the natio...
Speaker | 440 c462 (Link to this contribution) Order. I understand the Minister’s difficulty. Many issues have been raised this afternoon that were...
Phil Woolas | 440 c462 (Link to this contribution) I disagree, but I doubt that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, will allow me to stray too far down that road—...
Mark Harper | 440 c463-4 (Link to this contribution) In my constituency, which is adjacent to the border with Wales, the situation that the Minister desc...
Phil Woolas | 440 c462-3 (Link to this contribution) I shall direct my remarks to the amendment and its implications. The assumption behind several contr...
Mark Francois | 440 c455 (Link to this contribution) May I echo my right hon. Friend’s concern about the fact that certain documents were not available e...
Eric Forth | 440 c457 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has, typically, given a good example of problems that feature throughout the valuatio...
Anne Main | 440 c457 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that my right hon. Friend is exploring the anomalies. The Lyons report does not refer to a...
Eric Forth | 440 c456-7 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. My right hon. Friend knows all about his constituents’ dwellings. Accuracy is important and ...
Greg Knight | 440 c456 (Link to this contribution) Is not the way in which the revaluation is undertaken in one billing authority, two billing authorit...
Eric Forth | 440 c456 (Link to this contribution) I was simply referring to section 22B of the Local Government Finance Act, which I had in my hand. I...
Speaker | 440 c456 (Link to this contribution) Order. I would not want the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) to be tempted ...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 440 c456 (Link to this contribution) I raised this matter in an intervention. There has been much speculation in the press because, for t...
Mark Hoban | 440 c457 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps, in a way, I do want to talk about malign political influence. May I return to wholesale dem...
Eric Forth | 440 c457 (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether my hon. Friend wants to talk about malign political influence, but I give way ...
Mark Harper | 440 c458-9 (Link to this contribution) When my right hon. Friend mentioned individual billing authorities or adjoining ones, he used the dr...
Eric Forth | 440 c458 (Link to this contribution) Indeed it would, if people had that information available. However, the process by which that would ...
Mark Francois | 440 c459 (Link to this contribution) I thank my right hon. Friend for his generosity in giving way again. Without wanting to get too bogg...
Eric Forth | 440 c459 (Link to this contribution) One problem with the amendment is that it deliberately leaves that open, which gives rise to the dan...
Mark Francois | 440 c458 (Link to this contribution) There is another issue associated with demolition. With a relatively large-scale demolition, such as...
Eric Forth | 440 c457-8 (Link to this contribution) That worries me as well. Underlying much of the debate is the assumption that a beneficent Governmen...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 440 c458 (Link to this contribution) With large-scale demolitions, it is important to get some of the original tenants and owners back to...
Eric Forth | 440 c458 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that suggestion, because he brings me to the timing of such acti...
Mark Hoban | 440 c457 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Eric Forth | 440 c474-5 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that in this Government such constitutional certainty applies, but I shall not be temp...
David Howarth | 440 c475 (Link to this contribution) I have heard no reasons of substance, as opposed to superficial analysis, to make me change my mind ...
Eric Forth | 440 c473-4 (Link to this contribution) This Minister has obliged us with his interpretation of the hon. Gentleman’s amendment, but that wil...
David Heath | 440 c474 (Link to this contribution) The Minister cannot have views that are separate from those of the Secretary of State; the right hon...
David Howarth | 440 c473 (Link to this contribution) Now that the Minister has said what is in his mind he can be held to account for it, which he could ...
Eric Forth | 440 c473 (Link to this contribution) So the hon. Gentleman will now touchingly trust the Minister to interpret the words in his amendment...
Phil Woolas | 440 c473 (Link to this contribution) Were price divergence the criteria, the relevant property information would include every property, ...
Eric Forth | 440 c473 (Link to this contribution) I will help the hon. Member for Cambridge (David Howarth), who is speaking from a sedentary position...
David Howarth | 440 c473 (Link to this contribution) That would be a question for the Minister.
David Howarth | 440 c472 (Link to this contribution) That point is dealt with by using the term ““calendar year””. I do know what I am doing when I am dr...
Eric Forth | 440 c472-3 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that that answers my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope), but we shoul...
Phil Woolas | 440 c471-2 (Link to this contribution) I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point. I believe that the provision to require the Secretary of St...
Eric Forth | 440 c472 (Link to this contribution) The amendment has a superficial attraction. If one reads it quickly and not too deeply, it sounds ra...
Christopher Chope | 440 c472 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend refers to once a year, but does he accept that, if we read the amendment carefu...
Eric Forth | 440 c472 (Link to this contribution) That would be possible. As my hon. Friend and I know, when one drafts such an amendment, one must tr...
Angela Watkinson | 440 c470 (Link to this contribution) The Liberal Democrats’ amendment would require an annual decision to be made, with reasons, on wheth...
Phil Woolas | 440 c470-1 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Member for Cambridge (David Howarth) said, the amendment is similar, although not identi...
David Howarth | 440 c471 (Link to this contribution) The main point of the amendment is to encourage the Government to be consistent from one year to the...
Eric Forth | 440 c469 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman have any worries about the cost of that part of his amendment? If we are to ...
David Howarth | 440 c469-70 (Link to this contribution) I was about to come to that point. The second objection mentioned in Committee was that the amendme...
Paul Beresford | 440 c467 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister and all Members for the support—mixed support. We have had a substantial discus...
David Howarth | 440 c467 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 4, in clause 1, page 1, line 8, at end insert—
Lord Deben | 440 c466 (Link to this contribution) I rise to correct the Minister. I did not say that I am against growth; I said that I am against pil...
Phil Woolas | 440 c466-7 (Link to this contribution) I understand that the right hon. Gentleman said that. I muttered across the Chamber to the Liberal D...
Lord Deben | 440 c466 (Link to this contribution) The Minister did mention my speech.
Phil Woolas | 440 c466 (Link to this contribution) I give way to the right hon. Gentleman.
Phil Woolas | 440 c465-6 (Link to this contribution) I mentioned briefly my assumption that a transitional relief scheme would be needed in such circumst...
Brian Binley | 440 c466 (Link to this contribution) My major concern is the enforced growth imposed by the Government themselves. If the Government enfo...
Phil Woolas | 440 c466 (Link to this contribution) I answered that point when I said that valuation was based on an antecedent valuation date of 1991. ...
Phil Woolas | 440 c464 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate that point. I thought of it myself when I was preparing for the debate last night. As t...
Brian Binley | 440 c464 (Link to this contribution) Is not the real confusion created by the different rates that are levied, rather than by the base on...
Phil Woolas | 440 c464 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman says that that will always be the case, but if he were to read the 1992 Act and, ...
Paul Beresford | 440 c464 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I should have explained a little more clearly that I thought that the power would be used in...
Phil Woolas | 440 c464-5 (Link to this contribution) I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point and assume that that is why the amendment provides for group...
Phil Woolas | 440 c479 (Link to this contribution) I took care to say that the stories have led VOA staff to fear such attacks, but I will give example...
Paul Beresford | 440 c479 (Link to this contribution) The Minister will accept that most hon. Members who understand this matter know that what he is sayi...
Phil Woolas | 440 c480-1 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, because it gives me the opportunity to say again i...
Paul Beresford | 440 c480 (Link to this contribution) Many of us feel that a property-based tax for local government purposes has some positive advantages...
Speaker | 440 c479-80 (Link to this contribution) Order. Before the Minister replies any further on this point, I must remind him that, although I und...
Speaker | 440 c483 (Link to this contribution) Order. I think that the hon. Lady is verging on criticism of the Chair. I do not advise her to pursu...
Angela Watkinson | 440 c482-3 (Link to this contribution) : The Bill is very narrowly drawn, but it enables the Government to delay revaluation and to choose ...
Phil Woolas | 440 c481-2 (Link to this contribution) We will have to wait and see. When we consider council tax bills, we must bear in mind the council t...
Peter Bone | 440 c481 (Link to this contribution) Will that payment continue in future years?
Speaker | 440 c475 (Link to this contribution) I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Lobby.
Phil Woolas | 440 c478 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We have already had some confusion this afternoo...
Eric Forth | 440 c478 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. This is emphatically not the end of the parliamentary week ...
Speaker | 440 c478 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) for drawing the House’s attentio...
Phil Woolas | 440 c478 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time. I can assure you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that...
Speaker | 440 c478 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. I perhaps slipped into the thought that it is drawing to ...
Phil Woolas | 440 c479 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We also had some interesting exchanges in a short but nevertheless p...
Speaker | 440 c478-9 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, but perhaps the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark ...
Mike Penning | 440 c479 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister give some examples of incidents of physical or threatened abuse?
Christopher Chope | 440 c431 (Link to this contribution) I am illustrating a possible criterion upon which the Government might choose to exercise their disc...
Anne Main | 440 c431 (Link to this contribution) As my hon. Friend has so far mentioned only pensioners and people in receipt of council tax benefit,...
Christopher Chope | 440 c431 (Link to this contribution) I shall certainly go back to the argument that I was deploying, Madam Deputy Speaker. Another crite...
Speaker | 440 c431 (Link to this contribution) Order. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will relate his remarks to the amendment.
Christopher Chope | 440 c432 (Link to this contribution) I shall not refer to Second Reading, Madam Deputy Speaker, as it is a verboten subject, but I am sor...
Paul Beresford | 440 c432 (Link to this contribution) May I slightly disagree with my hon. Friend? The whole point of the driver that I am proposing is th...
Christopher Chope | 440 c432 (Link to this contribution) That remains to be seen. As I said, it would be a zero-sum game. In my constituency, more modern bun...
Anne Main | 440 c432 (Link to this contribution) There may be many elderly pensioners suffering in that way in my hon. Friend’s constituency, as ther...
Christopher Chope | 440 c431 (Link to this contribution) I accept that council tax is not wholly a wealth tax, but it is being used as one by the Government,...
Speaker | 440 c431 (Link to this contribution) Order. I think we are straying a little wide of the amendment.
Speaker | 440 c433 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman’s concern has been noted, but that is sufficient.
Christopher Chope | 440 c433 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend makes a good point but unfortunately I have no figures to illustrate it. All I ...
Speaker | 440 c433 (Link to this contribution) Order. I remind the hon. Gentleman that we have heard sufficient on that particular point. He may no...
Christopher Chope | 440 c433 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am sure that you are right that the House has noted our conce...
Greg Knight | 440 c434 (Link to this contribution) You will be aware, Madam Deputy Speaker, that I raised my concern at the outset about the absence of...
Christopher Chope | 440 c433-4 (Link to this contribution) Certainly, Madam Deputy Speaker. My hon. Friend’s amendment would require a much smaller cohort of s...
Eric Forth | 440 c434 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate my right hon. Friend’s frustration. Even though his ability to digest material his lege...
Speaker | 440 c432 (Link to this contribution) Order. Will the hon. Gentleman help me by indicating how that relates to amendment No. 3?
Eric Forth | 440 c433 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend pre-empts something of what I thought I might explore myself. I have a similar refere...
Christopher Chope | 440 c433 (Link to this contribution) It would be the consequence of having a national revaluation in one big chunk. Amendment No. 3 would...
David Leslie Taylor | 440 c436-7 (Link to this contribution) I aim to be of assistance to the right hon. Gentleman. The amendment refers to ““adjoining . . . aut...
Greg Knight | 440 c437 (Link to this contribution) I am obliged to my hon. Friend for that intervention.
Brian Binley | 440 c437 (Link to this contribution) : Does my right hon. Friend agree that the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister has undertaken a redi...
Greg Knight | 440 c437 (Link to this contribution) In this debate I have left my political axe outside the Chamber. I would be against the amendment be...
Paul Beresford | 440 c437 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can help my right hon. Friend with the intervention of the hon. Member for North-West Leic...
Greg Knight | 440 c437-8 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend says, sotto voce, that that is right, but I am not reassured. That is not what I mean...
Greg Knight | 440 c437 (Link to this contribution) Indeed—and the drafting of amendment No. 3 would allow the Deputy Prime Minister to pursue a regiona...
Phil Woolas | 440 c437 (Link to this contribution) Far be it from me to be fair to the hon. Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford), but I assume t...
Lord Deben | 440 c438 (Link to this contribution) I too thank Mr. Speaker for ensuring that we were provided with the Local Government Finance Act 199...
Greg Knight | 440 c434-5 (Link to this contribution) I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) for his advice, and ...
David Leslie Taylor | 440 c435 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is talking about a politically motivated or malevolent Secretary of State. ...
Greg Knight | 440 c435 (Link to this contribution) You will stop me if I stray too far in responding to that question, Madam Deputy Speaker. I do not a...
Lord Deben | 440 c435 (Link to this contribution) : My right hon. Friend is making a serious statement and, more serious, it is now almost universally...
Greg Knight | 440 c435-6 (Link to this contribution) I am making a serious point and I do not make it lightly. In the process of legislating, we should c...
Lord Deben | 440 c436 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that the other problem is that the amendment could be a means whereb...
Greg Knight | 440 c436 (Link to this contribution) That is another of my concerns. Given the wording of the amendment, I am not satisfied with the phra...
Mark Francois | 440 c436 (Link to this contribution) : From memory, I think that it was Lord Acton who said that power corrupts and that absolute power c...
Greg Knight | 440 c436 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right; I share his concerns. He has put his finger on the problem. If the amendmen...
Colin Breed | 440 c445 (Link to this contribution) I was in the Chamber at the beginning of this illuminating debate, but had to leave to consider a st...
Lord Deben | 440 c445-6 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman gets in touch with some property people, he will find that prices are rising a...
Greg Knight | 440 c443 (Link to this contribution) That is an interesting argument. Is my right hon. Friend volunteering Suffolk for a pilot scheme?
Lord Deben | 440 c443-5 (Link to this contribution) It would not be for me to volunteer my own county; it would be for the local authority to make those...
Speaker | 440 c441 (Link to this contribution) Order. I think that the right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer) might be tempted again f...
Lord Deben | 440 c441-3 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. My hon. Friend has made his point, and I agree with it, but I shall n...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 440 c447 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree. I shall return to that, if my hon. Friend will allow me, a little later in my spee...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 440 c446-7 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to follow my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer). To make ...
Speaker | 440 c438 (Link to this contribution) Order. The right hon. Gentleman is a seasoned speaker in this House, and I think that he would now l...
Lord Deben | 440 c439 (Link to this contribution) I quite agree, Mr. Deputy Speaker. As you will have noticed, I was meaning to go on without mentioni...
Phil Woolas | 440 c439 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is of course a former Secretary of State and he knows what he is talking ab...
Lord Deben | 440 c439-40 (Link to this contribution) One of the pleasures of being a Back Bencher is that one does not have to be too closely acquainted ...
Greg Knight | 440 c438 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my right hon. Friend that this is an important debate—so does he share my disgust that ...
Lord Deben | 440 c438 (Link to this contribution) I was not going to draw attention to that. It was so surprising that a matter of such importance to ...
David Leslie Taylor | 440 c440 (Link to this contribution) : I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it is acceptable for a Back Bencher to be detached from...
Lord Deben | 440 c440 (Link to this contribution) I do not think it right for me to deal with the geographical issue that the hon. Gentleman raises, b...
Speaker | 440 c440 (Link to this contribution) Order. A little while ago, the right hon. Gentleman said that I had missed a lot of a very interesti...
Lord Deben | 440 c440-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful, Mr. Deputy Speaker; I should have phrased my argument in the following, slightly diff...
Greg Knight | 440 c449-50 (Link to this contribution) Before my hon. Friend moves on, can I take him back to an argument of his that I did not find very c...
Brian Binley | 440 c450 (Link to this contribution) Does not this whole debate make the argument for introducing more flexibility into the whole system ...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 440 c450 (Link to this contribution) That is entirely possible. Of course, in the bigger cities the scale becomes bigger. That would have...
Greg Knight | 440 c450 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend accept that that does not necessarily have to be the case? In some developments,...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 440 c450 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend makes a partly good point. When I held my party’s housing and inner-city brief,...
Anne Main | 440 c451 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that my hon. Friend shares my concern that areas that are deemed wealthy contain areas of ...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 440 c450-1 (Link to this contribution) I was about to come to that point. My hon. Friend must be clairvoyant, too, because he has read my m...
Mark Hoban | 440 c450 (Link to this contribution) In the light of my hon. Friend’s professional and political experience, is it his view that large-sc...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 440 c450 (Link to this contribution) Yes, with one gigantic caveat—that it should not be ordered by the Secretary of State but be in the ...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 440 c449 (Link to this contribution) That is an interesting point. I reiterate my declaration in the Register of Members’ Interests that ...
Paul Beresford | 440 c449 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend will have heard my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) explain the us...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 440 c448 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend raised that with me privately earlier. I should like to research the point further. I...
Christopher Chope | 440 c447 (Link to this contribution) Is my hon. Friend sure that if a new house is built, it is valued at today’s price rather than the 1...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 440 c448-9 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend, who has a huge knowledge of the subject, must be clairvoyant, because he has read my...
Mark Francois | 440 c448 (Link to this contribution) May I suggest another potential category—areas in which large numbers of houses have been demolished...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 440 c449 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, it would not. Nevertheless, if demolitions had occurred, presumably new buildings would have...
Desmond Swayne | 440 c449 (Link to this contribution) With respect to my hon. Friend’s fifth category—authorities in which there has been a great deal of ...
Anne Main | 440 c449 (Link to this contribution) : If a peripatetic group of valuers were employed to save money, we would be short of staff if a ras...
Paul Beresford | 440 c453 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for the opportunity to do so. I think that he fails to understand something t...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 440 c453 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has huge knowledge of the way in which local government works and I am hesitant to co...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 440 c452-3 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to my hon. Friend in a moment, although I think that I can answer what he is about t...
Eric Forth | 440 c455 (Link to this contribution) My perusal of the Act has not elicited that information, but I guess that, sadly, the reference is a...
Lord McLoughlin | 440 c455 (Link to this contribution) Does the 1992 Act require one commissioner for the whole country or individual commissioners for eac...
Eric Forth | 440 c454-5 (Link to this contribution) I shall help my hon. Friend. I am glad that he made that point, although I do not need to go through...
Peter Bone | 440 c454 (Link to this contribution) I have a copy of the Act. It is a bundle of photocopied sheets and it looks as though there are abou...
Eric Forth | 440 c454 (Link to this contribution) This obviously essential debate has raised many subjects, and I should like to touch on a few of the...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 440 c454 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend, with his huge knowledge of such matters, is right. The Government are having to prod...
Mark Francois | 440 c453-4 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an interesting point about appeals and I should like to draw a brief analogy wi...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 440 c451 (Link to this contribution) I should like to answer my hon. Friend the Member for St. Albans (Anne Main). I am flattered that so...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 440 c452 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a good point. Indeed, I made it earlier in an intervention. The Secretary of St...
Peter Bone | 440 c452 (Link to this contribution) As I said earlier in the debate, I have a particular interest in this matter because Wellingborough ...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 440 c451-2 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend the Member for St. Albans made a good point. The core theme of my speech is that a pr...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 440 c452 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has hit the bull’s eye. That is what is wrong with the amendment. I believe that the ...
Mark Hoban | 440 c452 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech, but I echo the comment of my hon. Friend the Member fo...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 440 c425 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend, with his huge experience of local government matters, agree that a Secretary of...
Robert Syms | 440 c416 (Link to this contribution) This is an interesting debate on an important amendment. The basic architecture of the Bill would pu...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 440 c465 (Link to this contribution) The fact that any revaluation creates winners and losers has not yet been mentioned. Those who are l...
Phil Woolas | 440 c480 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I hope that you will allow me to give the hon. Member for Mole Valley...
Lee Scott | 440 c447 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that another reason could be that property values have changed and there a...
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 440 c449 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. In her customary way, my hon. Friend has made a good point. The Valuation Office Agency is s...
Desmond Swayne | 440 c452 (Link to this contribution) My fear is that whether the power is ordered by the local authority or the Secretary of State, it ma...
Brian Binley | 440 c425 (Link to this contribution) Well, I wish to do so. Again, I refuse to take the advice of my right hon. Friend. The amendment wo...
Brian Binley | 440 c423 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend has made a valid comment, but I argue that amendment No. 3 would at least allow...
Robert Syms | 440 c420 (Link to this contribution) That is a point. The Government acknowledged in Committee that putting off the revaluation meant tha...
Greg Knight | 440 c407 (Link to this contribution) On such matters, my hon. Friend’s voice carries great weight with me, because I know that he has stu...
Eric Forth | 440 c456 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that my hon. Friend mentioned section 22B of the Local Government Finance Act, as I have a...
Eric Forth | 440 c473 (Link to this contribution) This might be a little moment in parliamentary history. We have had the hon. Member for Cambridge pr...
Phil Woolas | 440 c466 (Link to this contribution) I am prompting interventions, but we have more amendments to deal with and Third Reading to come. Pe...
David Heath | 440 c477-8 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. May I draw your attention to an announcement on the website...
Speaker | 440 c434 (Link to this contribution) Order. The right hon. Member for East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight) has had sufficient help.
Mark Francois | 440 c441 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that the great complexity of the system makes people wary about reva...
Anne Main | 440 c426 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend have any concerns about pressures, for example, to provide land for development ...
Phil Woolas | 440 c461-2 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to try and clarify the amendment’s possible implications. This has been an interestin...
Subjects
Council tax
ICT
Increases
Local government
Local government finance
Property
Prices
Valuation
Tax rates and bands
Timetables
Time limits
Tax yields
Valuation Office Agency
Legislation
Council Tax (New Valuation Lists for England) Bill 2005-06
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
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